job posting removed because the client was a non-profit organisation
Thread poster: Thomas Johansson

Thomas Johansson  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 11:51
Member (2005)
English to Swedish
+ ...
Sep 28, 2004

I am getting really annoyed. I have just tried twice to post a job. The client is a non-profit organisation, and I point that out in the job posting, however, I do not in any sense post "on part of" a non-profit organisation, nor do I claim in the job post form that the assignment is "funded by a non-profit organisatin". Still, whoever it is consistently removes the job posting.

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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:51
English to German
+ ...
Please check the Job Posting FAQ Sep 28, 2004

Hi Thomas,
Please have a look at the Job Posting FAQ, a link to which is clearly indicated on the Job Posting Form, particularly:


13. What does it mean for a job to be funded by a non-profit group?

A non-profit group is an organization which exists for educational or charitable reasons, and from which its shareholders or trustees do not benefit financially. Some translators are willing to reduce their rates when working for a non-profit group they deem worthwhile. Jobs posted on behalf of non-profit organizations should include the name of the group, and a publicly visible link to a website with further information about the organization. Jobs marked as non-profit that do not meet these requirements will be removed by moderators or site staff.


Quite clearly, your first postings indicated that the job is being funded by a non-profit group, without identifying that group.

It's perfectly ok if you don't wish to disclose the identity of your client, but then you should refrain from qualifying the job as being funded by a non-profit organisation. Which you did, and the job was vetted.

Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.

Best regards,
Ralf


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Thomas Johansson  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 11:51
Member (2005)
English to Swedish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
no good reply Sep 29, 2004

I don\'t buy this.

The job posting form includes an option for selecting whether the job is funded by a non-profit organisation or not, and I consistently declared no. Furthermore, I would be responsible for paying the translator, not the organisation (although of course I would invoice the latter).

\"Jobs posted on behalf of non-profit organizations should include the name of the group, and a publicly visible link to a website with further information about the organization. Jobs marked as non-profit that do not meet these requirements will be removed by moderators or site staff.\"

The job was not \"posted on behalf of\" a non-profit organisation. It was posted on behalf of my own activity as an agency, and that was pretty clear from the posting.

I could finally repost only after removing every reference to non-profit organisations. This risked distorting the nature of the assignment as well as the procedures I need to identify suitable collaborators. It may sound strange, but it was important to me to identify someone who specifically is interested in non-profit organisations.

The censurship of non-profit references appears completely arbitrary. Along the same line of reasoning one could argue that job posters could not reference anything about their clients or the nature of the texts to be translated.

I understand you\'re doing your best and I am grateful for your work, but you clearly have to sort out your policies on this matter. Right now I cannot help feeling your getting very close to discriminatory policies against non-profits. I do not understand it.


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:51
English to German
+ ...
Substantiation of non-profit jobs required Sep 29, 2004

Thomas,

First of all, I would like to strongly reject the notion of censorship. ProZ.com Jobs moderators act in accordance with the rules set out in the Job Posting FAQ - these rules are openly posted on the site. I believe that accusing Jobs moderators of censoriship is unfair and insulting to volunteers devoting a fair part of their time to this site.

Please feel free to contact ProZ.com staff if you're unhappy with any moderator decision taken (you may note that we coordinated our actions with site staff).

Whether or not you ticked the checkbox indicating non-profit status is irrelevant, as the initial postings were quite clearly advertised as non-profit jobs.

As explained in the Job Posting FAQ, transparency is required when posting non-profit jobs. Sadly, we have seen commercial outsourcers post jobs as 'non-profit', presumably with a view to obtain lower prices. Please note that I'm not insinuating that your job posting wasn't genuine - I'm simply explaining why the rule was written, and is being enforced, the way it is.

Disclosing the identity of the non-profit group behind a job is the 'price' to be paid in exchange for being able to flag a low-priced job as being for a non-profit cause.

I hope this explains the background.

Regards,
Ralf Lemster


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Narasimhan Raghavan  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:21
English to Tamil
+ ...
This sounds like beating around the bush Sep 29, 2004

"The job posting form includes an option for selecting whether the job is funded by a non-profit organisation or not, and I consistently declared no. Furthermore, I would be responsible for paying the translator, not the organisation (although of course I would invoice the latter)."

If that were so, what is the point of mentioning the non-profit organization at all, that too when you yourself are going to invoice them? Is it perhaps due to the fact that you had quoted low to the non-profit organization and do not want to be having to pay market rates yourself? If that were the case and you wanted lower rates, then Ralf's quoting the relevant FAQ's is quite valid. The issue of non-profit organizations has been so much abused that one cannot be too strict about enforcing the rules that have been framed after mature considerations.

"I could finally repost only after removing every reference to non-profit organisations. This risked distorting the nature of the assignment as well as the procedures I need to identify suitable collaborators. It may sound strange, but it was important to me to identify someone who specifically is interested in non-profit organisations."

Why? It is really strange. A work is a work is a work. If you are the outsourcer, a potential translator will not worry about as to who your client is. For all he cares, you might be wanting to help a poor old lady by translating her documents free of cost. That is your decision. If you want to mention this fact, you will have to reveal who the old lady is.

I have not seen the posting in question, but from what you and Ralf have written, I cannot escape the conclusion that the mention to non-profit organization in an obscure manner was not conducive to having your job posting vetted favorably. The moment you mention a non-profit organization, you will have to abide by the rules or you should fully avoid any such references. There does not seem to be any middle ground.

"Right now I cannot help feeling your getting very close to discriminatory policies against non-profits. I do not understand it."

Not at all sir.

Regards,
N.Raghavan


[/quote]

[Edited at 2004-09-30 01:24]


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Thomas Johansson  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 11:51
Member (2005)
English to Swedish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
thank's for the explanation, but issues remain Sep 29, 2004

"Sadly, we have seen commercial outsourcers post jobs as 'non-profit', presumably with a view to obtain lower prices. ...I'm simply explaining why the rule was written, and is being enforced, the way it is.

Disclosing the identity of the non-profit group behind a job is the 'price' to be paid in exchange for being able to flag a low-priced job as being for a non-profit cause."

Thanks. This partly explains the concern about references to non-profits. However, I believe that demanding that a client's identity be revealed is an inadequate measure, which in effect (!) discriminates possibilities for mediating jobs for non-profit clients. The requirement seems misplaced. I am sure it helps to limit postings referencing non-profit organisations, but it does so too widely and among the postings prohibited there may be some (or many) that are perfectly well intended. (Not to speak of the many grassroots non-profit causes that do not have a web site!)

Also, the policy statement which you have quoted in support of the action should be clarified. As it stands right now, I cannot see that it supported the action that was taken.

"13. What does it mean for a job to be funded by a non-profit group?

...Jobs posted on behalf of non-profit organizations... Jobs marked as non-profit..."

It is not clear here what "posting on behalf of a non-prof org" and "marked as non-profit" is supposed to mean.
I was not claiming to be a representative of the organisation, but quite clearly an agency to whom the organisation had turned for help with a translation. Just as little as if I could claim to post on behalf of a company, if I would post a job where the client would be that company.
"marked as non-profit" is vague. I took it to mean to select the "non-profit" option in the job submission form, it shows up to to mean completely using the word "non-profit" anywhere in the post.


"what is the point of mentioning the non-profit organization at all, that too when you yourself are going to invoice them? Is it perhaps due to the fact that you had quoted low to the non-profit organization and do want to be having to pay market rates yourself?"

I quote low to non-profit organisations. Quoting high effectively prohibits them from accessing translation services that nevertheless may be of crucial importance to their work and their projects. It is correspondingly crucial for me to find collaborators who thus are willing to lower their regular market rates for non-profit causes, and who will be willing to do so not just because they desperately need a job or want to improve their portfolio or would seek to get through with the work as quickly as possible "because it pays bad" etc., but people who are not extremely motivated by money in what they do and love to work for the kind of causes in question.

As I explained, mentioning that it is a non-profit organisation is crucial. Unfortunately, people are different. Many people only work for money, and don't work unless there is money in sight. Others are interested in supporting good causes and want to put their skills to such use. I want to have people of the latter sort as my collaborators. This is important for developing long-term working relationships in this sort of project, secondly, it definitely will affect quality. Someone who is interested in his work is more likely to produce a good work than someone who is not.

Therefore, the following statement is only partially correct I think:
"If you are the outsourcer, a potential translator will not worry about as to who your client is. For all he cares, you might be wanting to help a poor old lady by translating her documents free of cost."

It is true for some people, most people I am afraid. However, for a few people it is not true, and those are the people I am looking for as my collaborators.

"The moment you mention a non-profit organization, you will have to abide by the rules or you should fully avoid any such references. There does not seem to be any middle ground."

Then the rules should first of all clearly state that non-profits cannot be mentioned at all. Anything less and the types of actions as the one taken will remain unsupported by the rules.

"Right now I cannot help feeling your getting very close to discriminatory policies against non-profits."

This was meant as a statement about the concrete effects of the policy, not about the intentions behind the policy makers or the moderators.

As long as jobs where clients are non-profits cannot be posted with the same discretion about client identity as other jobs a de facto discrimination will be the consequence. I should add that discretion about client identity is a fundamental aspect of public job postings. Draw the conclusion yourselves. The issue cannot be avoided by merely repeating "follow the rules". The fundamental question is whether the rules (i.e., I repeat, not the ones currently formally stated on the site, but those currently in effect in de facto policies and moderating decisions) are good ones.


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