| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Good ratings in Blue Board not so reliable? Thread poster: tr. (X)
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| About the problem at the beginning | Jul 4, 2005 |
traweb wrote:
...to be the kind who disappear after your "test" translation
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After taking the time to actually provide a translation that in most cases is not even short, this is very disappointing, and in some cases outright suspicious.
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Has anyone had similar experiences? Should I just consider those I had so far as unlucky, and keep using the BB as reference?
There are not only black and white sheep.
You have to agree with the agency when they will get back to you, otherwise they will have the excuse that nothing special was agreed ("no response" is a "response", too).
I do test translations only if they agree to send me detailed feedback - in case they don't want to pay for the test.
And since test translations are usually difficult texts (to facilitate the differentiation of applicants) they should be charged higher than the normal rate. (This argument may be balanced against their argument that they won't earn any money from it.)
[Edited at 2005-07-04 16:27]
| | | | Elena Pavan 
Local time: 18:56
Member (2005)
French to Italian
+ ...
I can understand Astrid's position. It's true, I did not hesitate to write a very good note for the agencies that were correct and honest. And I did not hesitate to write a bad comment about an agency who was very bad (and I realized that I was not the only one!!!). But there is another agency who pays good rates and almonst on time. I don't really like their way of working, they are quite messy, I am not sure they work with professional translators and I would never give their name to somebody ... See more I can understand Astrid's position. It's true, I did not hesitate to write a very good note for the agencies that were correct and honest. And I did not hesitate to write a bad comment about an agency who was very bad (and I realized that I was not the only one!!!). But there is another agency who pays good rates and almonst on time. I don't really like their way of working, they are quite messy, I am not sure they work with professional translators and I would never give their name to somebody who's looking for a good translation agency. I didn't write anything about them because I don't want to lie saying they are great, but if I really write what I think I'm afraid I might lose the client!!!
If our name wouldn't appear automatically near our comment, people would probably feel more free to write what they REALLY think about the agency and the BB would probably become more reliable. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Not fair to agencies | Jul 4, 2005 |
Elena Pavan wrote:
If our name wouldn't appear automatically near our comment, people would probably feel more free to write what they REALLY think about the agency and the BB would probably become more reliable.
That's not a good option, because the good thing about PROZ is its transparency. The agency must be able to give a comment, because
1. Some translators do not tell the whole truth.
2. The comments are also worthful for translators, because they can reveal something about the agency
My advice:
- Study the Blue Board very thoroughly.
- Take your time to do so. Its not done in half an hour.
- Contact some translators or agencies if something is cloudy.
Most of them wont feel bothered.
You will see that is a rich source.:-)
As far as I know: There are just a very few tricksters.
Fortunately they unmask themselves.
| | | | Edward Potter
Spain
Local time: 18:56
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| The Blue Board is very useful | Jul 4, 2005 |
Having comments about outsourcers is very valuable. Some people will be afraid to say something bad about an outsourcer, if they keep getting paid by them, albeit late.
However, guess what non-payment does to that fear? That's right, the translator is going to give a big 1, and passionately so.
So, as an outsourcer, most of the time you really have to screw up not to get a 4 or a 5. The 1s and 2s are very informative.
I for one am conscious of my BB scor... See more Having comments about outsourcers is very valuable. Some people will be afraid to say something bad about an outsourcer, if they keep getting paid by them, albeit late.
However, guess what non-payment does to that fear? That's right, the translator is going to give a big 1, and passionately so.
So, as an outsourcer, most of the time you really have to screw up not to get a 4 or a 5. The 1s and 2s are very informative.
I for one am conscious of my BB score. It affects me and the way I do my outsourcing. ▲ Collapse
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| [Unpaid] tests are not a job | Jul 4, 2005 |
As you say, you can't complain on the BB about nonresponse after tests, because it is not a job relationship. The BB is for reporting payment practices after completing a job. Yes, it is inconvenient and annoying not to receive a response after you have submitted a test, but it is common practice. Even though I don't condone it, you really do have to consider that their "you'll hear from us next week" is like "let's have lunch": a polite but meaningless phrase. Translators often tell of not hear... See more As you say, you can't complain on the BB about nonresponse after tests, because it is not a job relationship. The BB is for reporting payment practices after completing a job. Yes, it is inconvenient and annoying not to receive a response after you have submitted a test, but it is common practice. Even though I don't condone it, you really do have to consider that their "you'll hear from us next week" is like "let's have lunch": a polite but meaningless phrase. Translators often tell of not hearing back from agencies until 6 months or even a year or more after completing a test. At some point, the agency's favoured translator in your language pair is unavailable and they work their way down the list, and eventually the next name is yours.
In the face-to-face world, companies that interview a great many people for a vacancy often say "only successful applicants will be contacted." But you can't fault them as "bad employers" for not contacting unsuccessful candidates, because there was never an employment relationship. It would be nice if agencies were more honest and said this, too, if that's their policy.
[Edited at 2005-07-04 20:33] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dr.G.MD (X)
Local time: 18:56
| The Blue Board is very useful - Yes and No | Jul 5, 2005 |
After reading all the preceeding comments I would be inclined to subscribe to most of them. This is what transpired: Most tranlators are simply too dependent on the trickling income from agancies that they are too hesitant to even point to a fraudulent one, still hoping they might receive their compesation some day. On the other hand, the Blue Board has served me extremely well in gathering a group of tranlators all over the globe who were deceived by a particular agency, and we all received our... See more After reading all the preceeding comments I would be inclined to subscribe to most of them. This is what transpired: Most tranlators are simply too dependent on the trickling income from agancies that they are too hesitant to even point to a fraudulent one, still hoping they might receive their compesation some day. On the other hand, the Blue Board has served me extremely well in gathering a group of tranlators all over the globe who were deceived by a particular agency, and we all received our monies. Without the Blue Board we wouldn't have had a chance.
The underlying problem is the paltry amount that is being offered for translation assignments in many cases("Limited budget > well, so the job won't get done"), the time constraint and, yes, the horrible payment practices of some agencies. I alsohad agencies ask for extensive test ranslations who vanished into oblivion after the job was done (without any compensation.)
So here is my offer to all frustrated translators who don't dare to speak up and to point their finger to those awful agencies: You may mail me those agencies and specify your complaints and I will post it for you -I can afford to do this because I am not dependent on the respectable income I derive from my medical translations - they are just an intellectual stimulus for me, and I intend to keep it that way - of course I like my fair compensation and my income.
So, dare to speak up and do complain..... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Eva Blanar
Hungary
Local time: 18:56
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Test translation IS a job! | Jul 5, 2005 |
Most agencies do not pay for that (but the good ones do), but otherwise, test translation is "real" translation and one ought to be able to comment on the experiences, especially the bad ones.
Yes, payment practices are important, but in my eyes, BB is not simply about payment: my experience is that most agencies don't pay on time and, yes, I also accept jobs from them again and again. Partly because of my bills and partly, because they have their problems, too.
And yes... See more Most agencies do not pay for that (but the good ones do), but otherwise, test translation is "real" translation and one ought to be able to comment on the experiences, especially the bad ones.
Yes, payment practices are important, but in my eyes, BB is not simply about payment: my experience is that most agencies don't pay on time and, yes, I also accept jobs from them again and again. Partly because of my bills and partly, because they have their problems, too.
And yes, it is true that the simpler is the better, but there may be several reasons why one refuses to work for an agency again, so I would keep the present structure.
But the issue raised here is too important: I think any of us who had the same experience shall tell about that. Sample translation is the job #1 we do for that agency, so we shall have full rights to report about the outcome - don't tell me it can't be done... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Applause and Thanks! | Jul 5, 2005 |
Gerhard Rentsch, MD Ph.D. wrote: ....So, dare to speak up and do complain.....
Thanks Gerhard, for this very generous offer. Should I go through an ordeal like the one I have had in connection with a "bad" BB-rating I made, I shall simply dump everything on you and sit there grinning. I wish there were more people like you in this world)
Greetings,
Kathinka
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| Its still all there, Sven. | Jul 5, 2005 |
Sven Petersson wrote:
The Blue Board was created on my suggestion. I envisaged a VERY SIMPLE system, but failed catastrophically in my endeavours to convince ProZ.com to keep it SIMPLE and FUNCTIONAL.
The original concept was:
A simple binary choice: Yes, I would work for this agency again / No, I would not work for this agency again.
No space for any comments by the translator, thus avoiding the risk of upsetting any agency, and consequential libel suits!
No space for any comments by the agency.
Translator updateable, enabling the Blue Board to reflect current status.
The original concept was based on very simple ideas:
A solid string of “Yes” would have been a positive indicator.
A solid string of “No” would have been a negative indicator.
Details about reasons for “No” were to be dealt with in private communications between translators.
Sven, first of all, thanks--it was a great idea!
During rollout, we found that the community wanted a bit more than what you had suggested... instead of yes/no, people wanted to be able to express degrees of yes/no. And people wanted to be able to enter/see reasons for the yes/no. So we did a bit more with it.
But all the utility of the approach you originally suggested remains. If you like, just enter "5", or "1", with no comment.
What we now have is a system that is worse than no system...
The agency mafia quickly discovered how to work the system:
1. Hand out a small job to a new translator and pay for it double-quick.
2. Encourage the translator to make a Blue Board entry.
3. Enter “Thank you very much!” as response to the “Yes”, and block thereby any further entries from the translator.
4. Give the translator a big job and neglect paying for it.
5. Start from “1” with another translator.
I suppose you are imagining the possibility of this scenario, rather than referrring to an actual case. Members have expressed a desire to be able to make updated entries (and we plan to provide that with certain policies), but I have not heard of this 5-step plan before. Given that thousands of people use the board daily, if this were happening, we should be hearing about it.
Moreover, the strategy is unlikely and probably would not work. For one thing, to get the good Blue Board entry in the first place, the criminal outsourcer would have to make a payment, and that would be traceable. Seems an odd thing for a criminal to do.
For another thing, we have a policy on reports of non-payment: two complaints and an outsourcer gets banned. This policy has nothing to do with the Blue Board, but it would put an end to the practice you imagine after a few cycles.
| | | | | Sorry, Gerhard, we can not allow that | Jul 5, 2005 |
Gerhard Rentsch, MD Ph.D. wrote:
So here is my offer to all frustrated translators who don't dare to speak up and to point their finger to those awful agencies: You may mail me those agencies and specify your complaints and I will post it for you...
Hi Gerhard,
I appreciate the spirit behind your offer to colleagues. However, we need to maintain a policy of first-person entries only to keep the Blue Board reliable. This policy is posted, and when our attention is called to cases of entries being made by people who have not worked for an outsourcer, we must remove those entries.
| | | | | Entries must not be made on the basis of test translations | Jul 5, 2005 |
Eva Blanar wrote:
... test translation is "real" translation and one ought to be able to comment on the experiences, especially the bad ones.
Sorry, but to be clear, we do not allow Blue Board entries to be made solely on the basis of experiences gained in test translations.
It is true that it is possible to determine something about an outsourcer based on test translations and other preliminary interactions. However, based on our experiences, we decided that the Blue Board would be provided only for expressing one's likelihood of working *again* for specific outsourcers. In other words, you have to have at least begun a "real world" project for any outsourcer for whom you make an entry.
| | | | tr. (X)
Local time: 18:56
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER
GoodWords wrote:
Yes, it is inconvenient and annoying not to receive a response after you have submitted a test, but it is common practice.
See, in my experience, with agencies that contacted me or that I contacted myself, it really hasn't been that common! That's why I was disappointed when it happened with agencies who had good ratings on the BB.
Also, I'm not talking of a lack of response after simply sending a CV, or even after completing a test and getting a response on the test and then a "we'll get in touch when we have suitable jobs", which is perfectly fine. I'm talking of sudden lack of response after several exchanges had already been established, and feedback on the test had been specifically promised. That's never happened to me with agencies that I know are reliable.
There have been agencies, especially among those I responded to via the job posting system, who used the excuse of a test to get free translations. I can't know if a lack of response means that is what's going on, of course. But until I get a response, I have that doubt.
In the face-to-face world, companies that interview a great many people for a vacancy often say "only successful applicants will be contacted." But you can't fault them as "bad employers" for not contacting unsuccessful candidates, because there was never an employment relationship.
Yes; but that's different. I don't have any problem with a company viewing a cv, responding to initial contacts, and then no longer hearing from them. It may simply mean they don't need more translators in my combination at that time, or don't need my services specifically, or that my application was indeed 'unsuccessful', that's normal. What's not normal is not even bothering to provide the basic feedback - positive, or negative, regardless - that was promised on a translation that I took the time to do for them.
I don't have a problem with the idea of test translations on specific texts and areas the agency works in, I'd want one myself if I was to hire a translator. I'm ok with it being done for free, too. But I would give a response on it, if I took the time to review it, it means I can take the time to at least send an email. Otherwise, again, my doubt is what they wanted was not really a test.
There were also other kinds of 'inconsistencies' I noticed on other kinds of policies. Again, it could just be a few cases. It just left me skeptical about the ratings.
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Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 18:56
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
| Partly agree, Henry | Jul 5, 2005 |
Henry wrote:
It is true that it is possible to determine something about an outsourcer based on test translations and other preliminary interactions.
I would agree, Henry, but only as long as it's an unpaid test. Once the test is paid, it can IMHO no longer be considered a "preliminary interaction" as a business relationship has been created (usually based on a PO sent for the paid test).
I know that this has been discussed before, both among moderators and in public, but wouldn't it be worth enabling entries on the basis of test jobs, strictly under the proviso that these were paid?
FWIW,
Steffen
| | | | Channa Montijn
Netherlands
Local time: 18:56
Member (2003)
English to Dutch
+ ...
| Just a comment | Jul 5, 2005 |
I use the BB often to check on agencies... and I do rate agencies as well.
One agency I worked for I rated 5... last year.
I changed the rating after payment difficulties and a lot of problems this year: the problems were solved after a lot e-mails (some of them rather harsh from the agency involved)... this is what they sent me when payment was finally made:
" I am hoping that maybe now, as we proved it was a misunderstang / no bad
> intentions from us, you could ... See more I use the BB often to check on agencies... and I do rate agencies as well.
One agency I worked for I rated 5... last year.
I changed the rating after payment difficulties and a lot of problems this year: the problems were solved after a lot e-mails (some of them rather harsh from the agency involved)... this is what they sent me when payment was finally made:
" I am hoping that maybe now, as we proved it was a misunderstang / no bad
> intentions from us, you could revise your comment on Proz.com."
Please note this was not a misunderstanding...
My point is: let the BB be for translators only... there are a lot of agencies asking translators for a good rating and some of us are too scared (loss of income) to change their former rating or give them a rating which is not so great... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I like the BB | Jul 5, 2005 |
In the same way there are lots of translators there are lots of outsourcers, we mustn't be afraid of being honest and saying the truth, even if it means that we're going to lose the client.
I must confess that I hesitate less for good ratings than for bad ratings. Not that I don't give bad rates, but I wait until there's no more chance of getting paid, for instance.
But payment is not everything. I started working for an agency in December which has an excellent BB rat... See more In the same way there are lots of translators there are lots of outsourcers, we mustn't be afraid of being honest and saying the truth, even if it means that we're going to lose the client.
I must confess that I hesitate less for good ratings than for bad ratings. Not that I don't give bad rates, but I wait until there's no more chance of getting paid, for instance.
But payment is not everything. I started working for an agency in December which has an excellent BB rating with more than 15 entries. But it was a real mess, instead of giving the files to all the translators that were working on the same project into several languages, each translator had to download the files from the website. There were files missing, the wordcount was not correct, the deadline was changed but all the translators were not informed... it was an awful experience. So I came back to the BB and wondered whether those who had rated had been satisfied only because thay had got paid. But even my payment was late. I could have rated them right away, but they asked me to do another job. I talked to them clearly, saying all the points that I had disliked. They said I was right. I said that I would give them a chance to see if we could build a pleasant relationship, but was not very optimistic. Since then I've been working regularly with them and it works, instructions are more clear, things work better. But I haven't made an entry in the BB yet, I'm testing them.
Another good experience about the BB happened recently. I had been waiting for a payment for too long. When I accepted the job the outsourcer had three 5's and one 3 entered in 2003. I thought that there had been problems that were solved. But when I hesitated to enter my bad rate, 3 months later, I noticed that another translator who had worked for them at the same period complained because they had not paid him. I entered my rate and both, we forwarded to the Jobs Mods the documentation about the jobs. The result was that he was blocked from posting jobs in ProZ.com immediately. The following day I received via PayPal a partial payment, and I'm waiting for the remaining in order to change lightly my comment.
It's a good tool, we have to use it correctly, my entries are useful to you, your entries are useful to me.
Claudia ▲ Collapse
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