| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51] > | New at ProZ.com: Outsourcer "willingness to work again" feedback for translators Thread poster: Enrique Cavalitto
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Bentext 
Germany
Local time: 13:28
Member (2003)
English to German
+ ...
| Legal situation | Jun 27, 2006 |
On the issue of "informational self-determination", it's quite amusing that the very same people who make regular use of and contributions to the Blue Board argue so vociferously againsts a feature that is essentially the same thing...the only difference being, of course, that in this case it is their "privacy" that is affected (even though an option to completely hide/ignore any feedback is available).
Hi Konstantin,
Fine for you that you like the new feature and I hope it will bring you a lot of new clients.
But it seems you and the Proz.com staff do not realize that, e.g. under German law, Proz.com is not allowed to store any sensitive data about individuals without their prior consentment.
So it's not a question of majorities but of legality.
Stéphane
| | | | MichaelRS (X)
Local time: 13:28
| Although ... | Jun 27, 2006 |
Hi Konstantin,
Fine for you that you like the new feature and I hope it will bring you a lot of new clients.
But it seems you and the Proz.com staff do not realize that, e.g. under German law, Proz.com is not allowed to store any sensitive data about individuals without their prior consentment.
So it's not a question of majorities but of legality.
Stéphane
Although ...
A US site spreading information collected from Germans back to Germany is worthy of a law review article. LOL
| | | | | It has been removed from the profile | Jun 27, 2006 |
MarcPrior wrote:
What I still completely fail to understand is why the prompt for "feedback" can't be omitted from the profiles of those who don't want it
It has been removed, Marc, that is what I am correcting you on.
| | | | | This seems like a no-brainer to me | Jun 27, 2006 |
You want to collect and store information.
Some people are not willing to allow you to collect and store information on them.
You present reasons why they might benefit. Some decide they will benefit and consent; others continue to oppose the collection and storage.
You have the technology readily available to collect information only from those willing for you to do so. You can easily collect no information on the others, who are not willing.
... See more You want to collect and store information.
Some people are not willing to allow you to collect and store information on them.
You present reasons why they might benefit. Some decide they will benefit and consent; others continue to oppose the collection and storage.
You have the technology readily available to collect information only from those willing for you to do so. You can easily collect no information on the others, who are not willing.
So, what do you do? Continue to insist on collecting information from everyone? ▲ Collapse
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| cross-border data protection | Jun 27, 2006 |
MichaelRS wrote: Hi Konstantin,
Fine for you that you like the new feature and I hope it will bring you a lot of new clients.
But it seems you and the Proz.com staff do not realize that, e.g. under German law, Proz.com is not allowed to store any sensitive data about individuals without their prior consentment.
So it's not a question of majorities but of legality.
Stéphane
Although ... A US site spreading information collected from Germans back to Germany is worthy of a law review article. LOL
Yes, this will indeed become very intersting as data transmitted across borders is governed by the laws of the country they originated in. I.e the comments of a German outsourcer/colleague are subject to German privacy laws, those orginiating in China are subject to Chinese privacy laws, etc. 
| | | | Larissa Dinsley
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:28
Member (2003)
English to Russian
+ ...
Henry, to answer your question:
1) Yes, I am happy that the feedback feature is excluded from my profile. Thank you for removing it.
2) No, I am NOT happy that somebody may be keeping notes on me on the Internet, especially without letting me know.
Now, this gets kind of scary ("big brother is watching you" staff ) and I would absolutely insist that I should be kept aware of any kind of informatio... See more Henry, to answer your question:
1) Yes, I am happy that the feedback feature is excluded from my profile. Thank you for removing it.
2) No, I am NOT happy that somebody may be keeping notes on me on the Internet, especially without letting me know.
Now, this gets kind of scary ("big brother is watching you" staff ) and I would absolutely insist that I should be kept aware of any kind of information about me stored on ProZ. I believe I have this right under the UK Data Protection Act:
"7. - (1) Subject to the following provisions of this section and to sections 8 and 9, an individual is entitled-
(a) to be informed by any data controller whether personal data of which that individual is the data subject are being processed by or on behalf of that data controller,
(b) if that is the case, to be given by the data controller a description of-
(i) the personal data of which that individual is the data subject,
(ii) the purposes for which they are being or are to be processed, and
(iii) the recipients or classes of recipients to whom they are or may be disclosed,
(c) to have communicated to him in an intelligible form-
(i) the information constituting any personal data of which that individual is the data subject, and
(ii) any information available to the data controller as to the source of those data, and
(d) where the processing by automatic means of personal data of which that individual is the data subject for the purpose of evaluating matters relating to him such as, for example, his performance at work, his creditworthiness, his reliability or his conduct, has constituted or is likely to constitute the sole basis for any decision significantly affecting him, to be informed by the data controller of the logic involved in that decision-taking."
Larissa ▲ Collapse
| | | | | We will conform to the laws of our members' jurisdictions | Jun 27, 2006 |
MichaelRS wrote:
A US site spreading information collected from Germans back to Germany is worthy of a law review article. LOL
Maybe or maybe not. There are complex legal issues here to be sure, but the jurisdictional matter is not necessarily one of them. At least not for us. We have always sought to respect the laws of Germany and other jurisdictions in which we operate, and will do so with this system, too.
| | | | MichaelRS (X)
Local time: 13:28
| No assumptions | Jun 27, 2006 |
Yes, this will indeed become very intersting as data transmitted across borders is governed by the laws of the country they originated in.
Don't even assume that. "Conflict of Laws" is really tough. Sometimes a US court has applied the laws of Mozambique, and no, I'm not kidding.
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Bentext
Germany
Local time: 13:28
Member (2003)
English to German
+ ...
| Proz.com Status | Jun 27, 2006 |
MichaelRS wrote:
Although ...
A US site spreading information collected from Germans back to Germany is worthy of a law review article. LOL
That's true but not in this case. Afaik and as Henry stated in a previous forum discussion - http://www.proz.com/topic/48437?start=15&float= - Proz.com is registered in Germany. Somebody may correct me if that's not true.
Cheers,
Stéphane
| | | | MichaelRS (X)
Local time: 13:28
Edited to remove my snotty nose from this discussion.
[Edited at 2006-06-27 21:33]
| | | | | double standards | Jun 27, 2006 |
Bentext wrote:
Hi Konstantin,
Fine for you that you like the new feature and I hope it will bring you a lot of new clients.
But it seems you and the Proz.com staff do not realize that, e.g. under German law, Proz.com is not allowed to store any sensitive data about individuals without their prior consentment.
So it's not a question of majorities but of legality.
Stéphane
Stéphane,
I don't know anything about the legal side of this so I don't wish to get involved in that particular aspect. My point is that Proz.com already collects good and bad data on outsourcers and every single freelancer I know is absolutely delighted about it - many quote the Blue Board as being one of the main reasons for paying for Proz.com membership yet as soon as the same deal is proposed for translators everyone is suddenly up in arms about it; a myriad of arguments about legality, violation of privacy and God knows what else is immediately put forward. Further, you will be able to opt out of showing feedback on your profile unlike any BlueBoard outsourcer thus negating the "damage to reputation" consideration and all the rest of it.
Could someone enlighten me as to what the legalese for "double standards" is? I'll be sure to add it to my glossary.
Thanks,
Konstantin
[Edited at 2006-06-27 21:48]
| | | | | It's very simple: the outsourcers have agreed | Jun 27, 2006 |
Some people want data collected on them.
Collecting their data is fine.
Other people do not want data collected on them.
Collecting data on them is not okay.
ProZ can easily change their coding so that only those who consent are included in this new data-collection effort. Why is the site refusing to do so?
I cannot for the life of me understand what the problem is, unless ProZ has a hidden agenda here. Just collect data from those... See more Some people want data collected on them.
Collecting their data is fine.
Other people do not want data collected on them.
Collecting data on them is not okay.
ProZ can easily change their coding so that only those who consent are included in this new data-collection effort. Why is the site refusing to do so?
I cannot for the life of me understand what the problem is, unless ProZ has a hidden agenda here. Just collect data from those who want to participate, and do not collect or store data on those who do not want to participate.
I fully support implementing this kind of system for outsourcers as well, if everyone is concerned about the privacy of juridical persons. I do believe however that individuals have a higher expectation of privacy than businesses. But I will support a business' right to not have data collected on it as well if the owner feels strongly about it. ▲ Collapse
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| Location, location, location... | Jun 27, 2006 |
Bentext wrote: MichaelRS wrote:
Although ...
A US site spreading information collected from Germans back to Germany is worthy of a law review article. LOL That's true but not in this case. Afaik and as Henry stated in a previous forum discussion - http://www.proz.com/topic/48437?start=15&float= - Proz.com is registered in Germany. Somebody may correct me if that's not true. Cheers, Stéphane
AFAIK, it depends on where the data is actually stored. If somebody in Germany views data stored on a server that is located in the US, that's considered cross-border data transmission.
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Terry Thatcher Waltz, Ph.D. wrote:
Some people want data collected on them.
Collecting their data is fine.
Not all outsourcers have agreed. I personally created Blue Board records for several outsourcers (some of them individuals - not companies, and some of them who were both content authors and end-users of my work). It is possible to create a Blue Board record for any outsourcer you have worked with and they do not need to give their consent.
| | | | | I'll explain what I want to do. Can I get an answer in return? | Jun 27, 2006 |
Terry Thatcher Waltz, Ph.D. wrote:
You want to collect and store information.
Some people are not willing to allow you to collect and store information on them.
You present reasons why they might benefit. Some decide they will benefit and consent; others continue to oppose the collection and storage.
You have the technology readily available to collect information only from those willing for you to do so. You can easily collect no information on the others, who are not willing.
So, what do you do? Continue to insist on collecting information from everyone?
OK, I'll explain to you what I want to do. I'll move from the general to the specific.
Speaking generally, I have created a company whose mission is to offer "tools and opportunities for translators to network, expand their business, do better work and have more fun." As a former translator, I enjoy this mission very much.
With the feedback feature, we are currently engaging in an experiment, the goal of which is to develop one more tool that *may* help *some* members to expand their businesses.
Our first pass at the tool was welcomed by some (if their use of it is any indication), and opposed vehemently by others. So what I want to do now is explore solutions that will satisfy both camps.
To that end, at the moment, I am trying to get a concrete read on the situation, specifically, I hope to clarify the opposition, so that I might address it head-on with solutions.
I would like to think we achieved that on the first point, ie. display of feedback in profiles. I have asked you to confirm that this is the case for you, too.
I'll ask again: Is it, for you?
In short, I want to address your concerns, Terry. I just want to be sure I am not wasting my time trying to hit a moving target.
I hope you will oblige me by at least answering my previous question before reiterating the point about the collection of information.
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