| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51] > | New at ProZ.com: Outsourcer "willingness to work again" feedback for translators Thread poster: Enrique Cavalitto
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Sormane Gomes
United States
Local time: 13:53
Portuguese to English
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Uldis Liepkalns wrote:
Objection- ProZ.com since its first days serves both translators and outsourcers- its functioning and success wouldn't be possible otherwise. As to payment- member outsourcers already pay the same as translators. There indeed is a project for Corporate User Membership (you can see Beta version below the Featured Translator), but benefits planned does not include translator BB. Sadly, I have to say, as option to opt out of feedback defeats its purpose- obviously only good feedback will be accessible publicly.
Although I disagree with you that the functioning and success of ProZ wouldn’t be possible without both translators and outsourcers, you do have a point. If ProZ wants to cater to both, then the rights and privileges as a member should be equal. For example, there should be a BB for translators, and outsourcers should have the option of hiding their feedback.
But that’s the problem with trying to serve two kings. Personally, I don’t believe in any site or association that tries to serve, protect, or speak on behalf of both the supplier and the customer. You don't see associations serving both lawyers and clients, or both doctors and patients. Eventually both worlds are going to collide or there is going to be a conflict of interests.
If that is indeed the route ProZ wants to take, then those issues need to be seriously taken into consideration, after which it is up to us (translators and outsourcers) to decide if ProZ is a place that serves our needs or deserves our support.
Sormane F. Gomes
[Edited at 2006-06-25 16:23]
| | | | Marc P (X) 
Local time: 19:53
German to English
+ ...
| Response to outsourcer's view | Jun 25, 2006 |
Uldis Liepkalns wrote:
And what I completely fail to understand is the fear expressed by most posters here- are you so unsure about quality of your work?
Speaking just for myself, Uldis, I don't have any problem with my customers expressing their opinion of my work; I would just prefer to be in control of it. By the same token, I have customers who are a pleasure to work for, and I would be quite happy to say so in public, but not in this way. I don't see any appeal in having my customer references managed by ProZ.com, and however much I'm both a user and a great fan of eBay, I find the application of a rating system modelled on eBay's inappropriate for a professional service.
This new feature is just one of many I could point to where ProZ.com indulges in what I would cautiously describe as excessive hand-holding. The response is as to be expected: there are those who are quite happy to see ProZ.com as their "translator workspace" in which the form of their professional activity - their pricing, publicity, and discussions of terminology, just to give three examples - is organized for them in every detail. There are others who find ProZ.com's level of involvement intrusive, and I don't think I am alone in seeing some correlation between translators' length of professional experience and their feelings on this matter.
I have said before that ProZ.com will find it increasingly difficult to cater for the full breadth of the translation profession. This latest issue is just one manifestation of that, though I doubt it will turn out to be a watershed. Not because some of us are necessarily unhappy about customer feedback, or an explicit lack of it, appearing on our profiles. No: this may come as a surprise to some, but not all of us see ProZ.com as being synonymous with the translation profession or as our "translation workspace", and we don't therefore necessarily take the site as seriously as those who do. I very much doubt, for example, that existing or potential customers of mine will attach any importance whatsoever to the lack of customer feedback in my profile, any more than they do to the absence of pricing information, my very modest KudoZ score, or the fact that I am not a paying member of the site.
We may well see Giovanni's prediction coming true, but not in a mass exodus of the more experienced members. Instead, if the ProZ.com policy of offering a tightly constrained feature and function for every aspect of translators' professional activity continues, we may start to see an increase in the numbers of amused bystanders: even more experienced colleagues appearing under pseudonyms, with near-empty or for that matter blatantly satirical profiles, ignoring large areas of the site (as is clearly already the case in the jobs area), and needless to say not choosing to pay for Platinum membership. Whether the resulting, insidious damage to ProZ.com's image will be made up for by the greater numbers of paying "newby" members who are grateful to ProZ.com for organizing as much of their professional activity as possible, I have my doubts.
Marc
| | | | | For paying members only? | Jun 25, 2006 |
Henry wrote:
To the professionals who would consider leaving because of feedback, I would ask you to consider that this feature is intended for you, first and foremost. Please think about the possibilities and how you could use this to expand your business and make your work easier. This is intended for you to get the credit, the standing, that you have earned.
This feature may be good - if ever - for people who earn all or most or at least a large part of their income with ProZ' outsourcers. I don't.
It may be good - if ever - for people who are just starting and need to show that they are good. I am not and I don't need this, or at least I don't want it in this way.
It might be helpful in some other cases, but I think it is useful mostly for outsourcers. I am not an outsourcer, nor do I want to do a service to outsourcers.
We all know the poor price level of the jobs offered here at ProZ which has been discussed many times.
Terry Thatcher Waltz Ph. D. wrote:
It's intended for those willing to take low-paying jobs to establish themselves, and then to accept feedback from low-paying clients to "look experienced", because those are the only jobs they have ever done, and then to get MORE low-paying jobs. Sure, in between there are some relationships between experienced people and their clients -- but why would an experienced translator waste time and effort soliciting reviews from established, busy agencies for whom they regularly work? Way to annoy your customers!
It's intended for unscrupulous agencies, who can then squeeze prices further because they can simply and effectively blackball those who do not "play along". I would also carefully consider whether the Membership Agreement or whatever it's called has language SPECIFICALLY AUTHORIZING the posting of comments pertaining to one's individual reputation. If it doesn't, posting about an individual could be tantamount to libel or slander. Posting about an organization gives a bit more wiggle room. Facilitating posts by organizations about individuals, well, that is not really cricket, now, is it?
It might create in such manner a vicious circle that we don't really want to happen, do we?
If this feature is supposed to remain on our profile (in the visitor's view which is the one that we are talking about here and which is the one that counts - for the moment, it seems we can opt it out only for owner's view, or is this only for the "trial period"? - ) I am seriously considering to ask my money back, hoping this will be a feature for paying members only. I just renewed my membership last month...
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 20:53
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
MarcPrior wrote:
speaking just for myself, Uldis, I don't have any problem with my customers expressing their opinion of my work, I would just prefer to be in control of it.
I'm sure your sentiments would be echoed with great enthusiasm by all "so-so" paying outsourcers in regard to the BleuBoard. However, what sense would there be in a BB, having only fives or no feedback at all?
Please note that it works both ways- I myself am "outsourcer" for translators- and as such subject to BB entries and "insourcer" for my clients- thus open to criticism on quality, deadlines and so on.
Another thing is, I'd like, due to confidentiality issues, all the feedback to be publicly anonymous (the details would be available to the Staff, of course), as I cannot afford to give away my clients- both for business and NDA reasons.
Uldis
[Edited at 2006-06-25 18:47]
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| non-member's (yet) opinion | Jun 25, 2006 |
I probably will become a member in the near future as I find the site extremely useful (and I don't mean jobs here).
However, I have no intention of switching into new profile format - IMHO the amount of info it provides is excessive and layout not very clear. I'll stick to the old format (not only because of the WWA thing).
I think that proz.com profiles should be customisable as much as possible. A member should be able to display what he/she wants.
WWA is a feature ... See more I probably will become a member in the near future as I find the site extremely useful (and I don't mean jobs here).
However, I have no intention of switching into new profile format - IMHO the amount of info it provides is excessive and layout not very clear. I'll stick to the old format (not only because of the WWA thing).
I think that proz.com profiles should be customisable as much as possible. A member should be able to display what he/she wants.
WWA is a feature appreciated by part of the members and they will be using it. Others should have the 'blank' option to wipe it off (at least) visitor's view.
Otherwise, I really enjoy the site and the work by the site staff.
Regards,
Michał
[Edited at 2006-06-25 19:25] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 20:53
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
| About having the `empty' Feedback button at our profiles | Jun 25, 2006 |
Reading the discussion, I can't get why so many of us speak so `different languages'.
Having the button `(Enter) Feedback' is necessary because you cannot avoid receiving a feedback if your client decides to describe his WWA with you. Because you have the same right when using BB - you may enter your LWA with the client. Note that the outsourcers listed at BB cannot hide the feedback they receive, but we may opt out not to show the feedbacks at all. Still having the button is a must... See more Reading the discussion, I can't get why so many of us speak so `different languages'.
Having the button `(Enter) Feedback' is necessary because you cannot avoid receiving a feedback if your client decides to describe his WWA with you. Because you have the same right when using BB - you may enter your LWA with the client. Note that the outsourcers listed at BB cannot hide the feedback they receive, but we may opt out not to show the feedbacks at all. Still having the button is a must.
Moreover, the site staff explained several times that the feedback received will be vetted, so if you receive an unfair feedback you may protest against it and the staff/moderators would not allow it until investigating the matter.
And no one is obliged to send an invitation and ask for a feedback from your clients - you may or you may not, it's your choice. As for anonymous feedbacks, the idea is implemented in the PH already, so I believe it may be easily transferred onto the Feedback feature.
Also, I do not understand those who state they are so well-established that don't have or need clients or jobs from ProZ - why do you care about the new feature so much? If you don't need new clients, it should not bother you at all, just opt it out. I doubt that having an extra button in your profile would anyhow affect your business...
Finally, as it was said above by someone, please do note how different the Owner's and Visitor's Views are in our profiles.
[Edited at 2006-06-25 19:07]
[Edited at 2006-06-25 19:07] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Larissa Dinsley
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:53
Member (2003)
English to Russian
+ ...
Kirill Semenov wrote:
Reading the discussion, I can't get why so many of us speak so `different languages'.
Sorry, Kirill, no "different languages". Just one CLEAR message - we do not like it. It may be different from what you think - yes. What gets me in this discussion is that people who are against it do not say "stop it for all". On the contrary, we keep saying "give everybody a choice". Whilst people who are in favour say that it should be compulsary for ALL. It's like: "I think it's good so you have to do it.
In a sence, the feature will work anyway: outsourcers like Uldis have a choice to choose a translator with feedback and not to choose one without. Here you go, it works! And it works in your favour because he will choose you with a wonderful feedback rather than me without any. And I am fine with it. I just do not undersdand why you are not.
I simply do not want that button in my profile because I do not find it useful, I do not like it and I think it is a wast of time.
Having the button `(Enter) Feedback' is necessary because you cannot avoid receiving a feedback if your client decides to describe his WWA with you... Still having the button is a must.
Exactly! "Must", "have to" - I do not like this kind of language. I do not want to be pushed into something I am against.
Why is it a must? Why I "cannot avoide receiving a feedback"? Is it MY profile as I have been led to believe when I joined the site? Or is it not mine any more? To be honest, I find it extremely upsetting.
Moreover, the site staff explained several times that the feedback received will be vetted, so if you receive an unfair feedback you may protest against it and the staff/moderators would not allow it until investigating the matter.
It is irrelevant. I am against it not because I am worried that somebody may post a bad feedback but because I want to have control of my profile and I believe that this feature is useless. At least, for me.
And no one is obliged to send an invitation and ask for a feedback from your clients - you may or you may not, it's your choice. As for anonymous feedbacks, the idea is implemented in the PH already, so I believe it may be easily transferred onto the Feedback feature.
No, nobody is. But if you have read the thread carefully, you may have noticed that people honestly think that an obscure button with does not give you any information can be regarded as "bad" information.
Also, I do not understand those who state they are so well-established that don't have or need clients or jobs from ProZ - why do you care about the new feature so much? If you don't need new clients, it should not bother you at all, just opt it out. I doubt that having an extra button in your profile would anyhow affect your business...
Who said that well-established translators don't need new clients? They just do not need this feature to prove their skills.
Have a nice evening!
[Edited at 2006-06-25 20:49]
| | | | Susana Galilea
United States
Local time: 12:53
English to Spanish
+ ...
Larissa Dinsley wrote:
Who said that well-established translators don't need new clients? They just do not need this feature to prove their skills.
I second Larissa's post in its entirety.
All best,
Susana
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| OK. We will modify and launch a trial run. | Jun 25, 2006 |
Larissa Dinsley wrote:
I am against it not because I am worried that somebody may post a bad feedback but because I want to have control of my profile...
Understood. Obviously, many share this feeling.
We'll take this and other responses to this announcement on board and--in a trial run, as suggest by Ralf--we will refine the system until it suits you, our membership, more broadly.
We'll take care to retain the power of the new feedback system, bearing in mind that some of you have already begun to make beneficial use of it. Anyone who wishes to continue using the system may do so; you can invite your clients to give feedback, and you can optionally show that feedback to others from your profile.
Thanks, everyone, for your participation in this thread.
One note in closing: It seems to me that the goals of the system have been misunderstood by a good number of those posting here. All we are trying to do is give translators a convenient new way to tap what is one of the most effective form of marketing -- word of mouth from satisfied clients -- to their personal advantage (if they so choose). I'll make sure this goal is clearer in future discussion of the feature.
| | | | Elena Woontner (X)
United States
Local time: 10:53
English to Italian
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| If I pay, I have a say in the matter. | Jun 25, 2006 |
Henry,
You know I think you are a smart business man and a great help to translators. I appreciate your point of view.
Things are quite simple, though. If I am paying you for a service, I normally have the right to opt out on things I don't want. And my opting out should not be made public.
I think it is not an "option" to make the feedback feature"optional". I pay, therefore I simply do not want:
1. To show my rates
2. To show my projects
3. T... See more Henry,
You know I think you are a smart business man and a great help to translators. I appreciate your point of view.
Things are quite simple, though. If I am paying you for a service, I normally have the right to opt out on things I don't want. And my opting out should not be made public.
I think it is not an "option" to make the feedback feature"optional". I pay, therefore I simply do not want:
1. To show my rates
2. To show my projects
3. To show my clients
4. To allow some outsourcers to formulate arbitrary judgment of my work
on a public site. I know that ALL of these features spell trouble unless you are a student or an amateur. I have been threatened in the past for mentioning a project's name on my resume.
I have references. I deliver my work on time.
I have already seen on another mailing list where the subject is discussed posts of the kind "Where can I get the URL for the feedback, finally I can send my feedback on so-and-so that did not deliver a translation".
"Things" happen, of course, but how many professionals disappear without a trace in the middle of a project as opposed to agencies and clients who disappear after having received the completed assignment without paying?
You know human nature. This would become a weapon in the hands of outsourcers without scruples, not a tool to promote translators who are young, inexperienced and without references.
Sorry to say that, I am not a very trusting person. Ceased to be a long time ago.
This also serves to "bump" the thread, because I feel it is important and must be there on Monday.
Elena Woontner
[Edited at 2006-06-25 22:37] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sormane Gomes
United States
Local time: 13:53
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| Please be more specific. | Jun 25, 2006 |
Henry wrote:
It seems to me that the goals of the system have been misunderstood by a good number of those posting here.
With all due respect, Henry, I have been following this thread from the beginning and I don’t think there is any misunderstanding regarding the goals of the “Feedback” feature. I think it’s clear what they will achieve. It’s just that a good number of those posting here, as you said yourself, do not approve of it and do not want it in their profile. Let’s not confuse misunderstanding with disapproval.
If indeed there is misunderstanding, perhaps that lies in the fact that even after 14 pages of discussion we still haven’t received a concrete answer on the issue.
Henry wrote:
Thanks, Sormane, for making the issue concrete. Obviously your question is shared by others. I'll explain.
You asked me to make myself clearer, and I think I succeeded. Now it’s my turn to kindly ask you to be more specific.
Henry wrote:
Ok. We will modify and launch a trial run.
Understood. Obviously, many share this feeling.
We'll take this and other responses to this announcement on board and--in a trial run, as suggest by Ralf--we will refine the system until it suits you, our membership, more broadly.
Modify what? Refine the system how? How long will the trial run? Is the box going to be completely removed during the trial run? Are we going to be informed of future changes?
Henry wrote:
I suppose the option to make entries could take a different form, or be placed somewhere other than profiles. We could try that, if the appearance of the option (now a box) in the profile is what is objectionable.
Are you going to consider the above as well? Could you be more specific?
I will end my participation in this thread now because it's already taking too much of my time.
Thank you for listening and for your prompt responses.
Sormane F. Gomes
[Edited at 2006-06-26 00:02]
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 20:53
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
| What strikes me most | Jun 25, 2006 |
is that the people most opposed to the new feature at the same time state that they are fully booked for next 20 years to come, they never have yet found nor intend to seek any customer via ProZ, all their jobs come from another sources anyway, etc., etc.
This leaves me lost- why all the commotion then?
Uldis
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Susana Galilea
United States
Local time: 12:53
English to Spanish
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Uldis Liepkalns wrote:
is that the people most opposed to the new feature at the same time state that they are fully booked for next 20 years to come, they never have yet found nor intend to seek any customer via ProZ, all their jobs come from another sources anyway, etc., etc.
With all due respect, Uldis, I haven't read any such assertions from any of the posters in this thread. We are all trying to be as specific as possible, and it seems to me caricaturizations of this ilk do not help.
Uldis Liepkalns wrote:
This leaves me lost- why all the commotion then?
All the commotion is about choice and self-management and perception and professional direction and having a say when you are paying for a membership...for starters.
Susana
[Edited at 2006-06-26 15:10]
| | | | | Response to Sormane | Jun 26, 2006 |
Sormane Fitzgerald Gomes wrote: We'll take this and other responses to this announcement on board and--in a trial run, as suggest by Ralf--we will refine the system until it suits you, our membership, more broadly. Modify what? Refine the system how? How long will the trial run? Is the box going to be completely removed during the trial run? Are we going to be informed of future changes?
To be more specific, we will consider the feedback we have received and how feedback has already been used, decide what exactly we'll do, and then post again.
Sorry I am not more specific, but remember, it is a weekend, and we'll need to meet as staff members before moving forward.
I suppose the first thing we'll do (as I say, pending discussion) is remove the feedback box from the profiles of those who may not want it (ie. those who have not already used it).
| | | | | A simple checkbox would easily hide or show this module | Jun 26, 2006 |
Henry wrote:
One note in closing: It seems to me that the goals of the system have been misunderstood by a good number of those posting here. All we are trying to do is give translators a convenient new way to tap what is one of the most effective form of marketing -- word of mouth from satisfied clients -- to their personal advantage (if they so choose).
Okay, then why not simply write some articles and posts pointing out that posting quotes from clients expressing their satisfaction with your work would be a good way to market yourself on your own customizable ProZ profile page?
ProZ is getting dangerously close to the model in which we freelancers are working for it, not the other way around. I thought the model was supposed to be freelancer pays membership fee, site provides features to freelancer, not freelancer pays and site imposes features on the freelancer.
Please re-examine your own words: "to their personal advantage (if they so choose)". There is no means being offered to allow us to choose without sacrificing our personal advantage, if our choice happens to go against that of the Powers that Be. And I know enough about coding user-editable Web pages to know that it is NOT necessary to have that module showing; a very simple checkbox variable (user controlled, please) would easily toggle it as visible or completely absent. The data in the database would NOT be affected.
The failure to offer such a choice, a true choice, is a reflection of either a terrifyingly paternal attitude or a complete lack of regard for freelancer automony in marketing and promotion, both of which serve the site's profitability. As I have said before, I think the site SHOULD make a profit -- it is a business. But it should think about the excuses it is giving while so doing, and consider its long-term, sustainable growth before it alienates a long-standing group of experienced practitioners.
[Edit: spelling mistake!]
[Edited at 2006-06-26 02:04]
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