| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51] > | New at ProZ.com: Outsourcer "willingness to work again" feedback for translators Thread poster: Enrique Cavalitto
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Sormane Gomes
United States
Local time: 19:10
Portuguese to English
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| Words out of my mouth. | Jul 1, 2006 |
Susana Galilea wrote:
I do know I have been a satisfied customer and participant in this community for the past 3+ years, and I can't think of any other times when a situation such as this one came to be. Which naturally leads me to believe a new set of priorities is brewing, which may clash with what I consider the value of this site to be. I may be more or less pleased with different sections in this site, and some of them are downright useless to me.
2 years for me, and it's almost time to renew my membership.
Susana Galilea wrote:
My concern, in light of what I perceive as an emerging difference in perspectives, is over whether Proz is taking a direction I no longer agree with. It is a business and it should be management's prerrogative to evolve it in any way they choose. Same as it is my prerrogative to decide I no longer care to support it. But in order for those decisions to be made, there needs to be crystal clear communication. And this is just what many of us long-standing members have been requesting for the past week. I appreciate you are finally seeking to provide some answers.
Susana
You took the words out of my mouth. Thank you, Susana.
Sormane F. Gomes
[Edited at 2006-07-01 03:54]
| | | | | Yes, Susana, but we are not in isolation here | Jul 1, 2006 |
Susana Galilea wrote:
Henry, it's the perspective behind the choice of words that I reacted viscerally to, same as I was surprised at your example of setting the temperature in "real-world workplaces". Not having to squabble over my environment is the main reason I eventually became a fully self-employed translator...
I get that. All I am saying is that what you do at ProZ.com affects others, and what others do affects you. That is why it is not reasonable to expect that every feature at ProZ.com will afford every individual an infinite degree of personal choice.
Understanding this is essential to understanding our job as site administrators (no shift is underway, incidentally) in general, and our decision on this matter in particular.
Maybe others can say what I am trying to say in a clearer way.
| | | | | Thank you for your eloquence Susana | Jul 1, 2006 |
Susana Galilea wrote:
Henry, it's the perspective behind the choice of words that I reacted viscerally to, same as I was surprised at your example of setting the temperature in "real-world workplaces". Not having to squabble over my environment is the main reason I eventually became a fully self-employed translator, after years of freelancing in-house at translation agencies. Thing is, being an employee puts you in a position where your options as far as self-management are restricted. Last I checked, I was not an employee of this site (I am not saying you stated this, just responding to your choice of example), but a professional who has chosen to make an investment by supporting a business that offers products and services in line with my perspective and preferences.
My thoughts exactly, and very elegantly put. You and I share some of the same reasons for becoming self-employed, and I think we also share some of the same perspective about this issue.
I really don't consider ProZ a workplace, but a tool that I can use as much of or as little of as I choose,which was one of my reasons for becoming a member. And I support ProZ. This is the only site I've ever paid for...
Jennifer
| | | | Ana Cuesta 
Spain
Local time: 01:10
Member
English to Spanish
| Choices versus freedom and rights | Jul 1, 2006 |
Henry wrote:
I get that. All I am saying is that what you do at ProZ.com affects others, and what others do affects you. That is why it is not reasonable to expect that every feature at ProZ.com will afford every individual an infinite degree of personal choice.
With all due respect, Henry, you keep ellaborating about personal choice when I feel a lot of us here are rather worried, as expressed ad nauseam in this thread, about personal freedom and rights such as privacy and control of our own business and image, things which are, I think, in a quite different level.
I haven't spoken so far so I'll start by stating that I am against the whole thing (out/out then) as a matter of principle, because:
1) I don't want the site "intruding" in any way in my way of doing business (offering any option should be fine, but I would hope that a 'thanks but no thanks' answer should be equally legit, with no need for further explanation).
2) I am really worried about the fact that such sensitive functions (many may not see that sensitiveness, but I suppose we can agree to disagree on that) are launched first and announced/discussed only a posteriori. I would expect that when some major feature is launched we all are explicitely informed by email previous to the fact and that any such options are opt-in rather than opt-out.
So I appreciate it (thank you very much) that you have finally decided to give us the out/out option (so I can rest assured that my privacy and freedom are still respected in the site and I won't need to apply my ultimate out option and I look forward to your promised explanation about the underlying philosophy for implementing the option in the first place and your initial reluctance to give us the out/out option, but since I've read so far I thought I was entitled to say all I've read so far is more like going in circles round the issue without getting into the core of it. Will keep listening though. Thanks!
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no concrete answers, though. With due respect, Henry, can we have some direct statements? We all know your philosophy and where you are coming from. All I asked was: can we opt out/out, without the site collecting private information on the members who wish to opt out altogether?
Regards,
Giovanni
[Edited at 2006-07-01 10:41]
| | | | Fan Gao
Australia
Local time: 09:10
English to Chinese
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| What am I missing? | Jul 1, 2006 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
All I asked was: can we opt out/out, without the site collecting private information on the members who wish to opt out altogether
Henry wrote:
So that there will be no misunderstanding, let me repeat: not only will you not be required to *use* the WWA system (of course, this was always the case), you will also be able to *prevent others* from making private entries that only you would have seen.
Doesn't Henry's reply answer this question? I was kind of OK with this new feature but now I'm starting to get paranoid about this whole "Big Brother" conspiracy theory:)
Please, please, please Henry, just make a few "brief" statements in black and white clarifying this whole matter and put this thread to bed.
Thanks
Mark
| | | | cmwilliams (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:10
French to English
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| Exactly my thoughts | Jul 1, 2006 |
Susana Galilea wrote:
[ I do know I have been a satisfied customer and participant in this community for the past 3+ years, and I can't think of any other times when a situation such as this one came to be. Which naturally leads me to believe a new set of priorities is brewing, which may clash with what I consider the value of this site to be.
Henry has said that we will not be required to use the WWA feature and that we will be able to 'prevent others from making private entries', but I still have an uneasy feeling. At the moment, it seems that we can choose whether or not to use the feedback feature and if we choose not to, no feedback box is displayed in the visitor's view of our profile. So presumably no one would be able to enter any comments either. However, if we still have to prevent others from making comments, it seems that there must be something else involved. I suppose all will eventually be revealed.
[Edited at 2006-07-01 11:03]
[Edited at 2006-07-01 11:26]
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 01:10
German to English
+ ...
| Philosophy and business model | Jul 1, 2006 |
Henry,
As I see it, you have responded to specific concerns of the "out/out" camp, and the solution proposed with regard to this particular feature appears, at least at first sight, to be satisfactory.
I believe however that this issue raises more fundamental issues concerning the ProZ.com model. I have drawn attention to these issues on past occasions, and also in the context of the present discussion.
One of the attractions of ProZ.com is that it is a "on... See more Henry,
As I see it, you have responded to specific concerns of the "out/out" camp, and the solution proposed with regard to this particular feature appears, at least at first sight, to be satisfactory.
I believe however that this issue raises more fundamental issues concerning the ProZ.com model. I have drawn attention to these issues on past occasions, and also in the context of the present discussion.
One of the attractions of ProZ.com is that it is a "one-stop shop" for the services needed by freelance translators. It offers discussion forums, a forum for terminology support, a knowledge base, discounts on products, services for marketing (profiles, hosting of translators' web pages), customer vetting, etc. etc. This one-stop aspect of ProZ.com makes it particularly attractive to translators seeking to establish themselves, extreme cases of which typically make their first appearance on ProZ.com with a message to the effect of "Hi, I'm a newbie, how do I get started?". Note: I am not suggesting that translators who make full use of ProZ.com's services are automatically such extreme cases, merely that ProZ.com is particularly attractive to such individuals.
Amongst freelance translators, though, there is a substantial category of "free spirits". It is in the nature of the profession that many translators have atypical biographies, often for example having lived in more than one country or having switched professions; and their freelance status is not necessarily a matter of necessity, but a reflection of their outlook on life. Such people guard their independence jealously.
Whereas the former group may find the ProZ.com approach of "we know what's good for your business" very reassuring, the latter will inevitably feel patronized and will reject it out of hand. As you can see, Susana's comments strike a chord for many of us.
This is one manifestation of what I have been saying for a long time: in seeking to serve the entire translation profession, ProZ.com is treading a very fine line. The adage that you can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time holds very true. It is not realistic to expect all users of the site to be happy with all features and services. If the site is to be attractive to all, or even most, potential users, it must be accepted that users must be free to pick and choose which services they wish to use, and to ignore those they do not. It is superfluous to say that ProZ.com, like any other business, is unable to offer all users and customers an infinite degree of personal choice. There is however a fundamental concept of personal choice that should be open to all users, namely whether or not to take advantage of certain services.
It seems that this concept is at variance with the ProZ.com philosophy. Rather than ProZ.com offering services which users and members are at liberty to use or ignore, users are, it seems, required to justify why they do not wish to use the services concerned, in the manner envisaged by ProZ.com. In fact, a substantial number of users have had to expend considerable effort merely to prevent ProZ.com from interfering in their relationships with their customers. However satisfactory the outcome may be, both the fact that it was an issue in the first place, and the difficulty with which it was resolved, are grounds for concern, and unless there is a change in the ProZ.com philosophy, similar situations can be expected to arise again.
I must also say that this issue has been handled in a way which is highly damaging to the image of ProZ.com, in several respects. I am reluctant to elaborate in this context to the mistakes I think have been made, since that would only draw more attention to them and damage ProZ.com's image further, which I am not interested in doing. If you (Henry) want my frank opinion, however, please contact me by e-mail and I will send you my comments privately.
Marc ▲ Collapse
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| I love this site, but I am really worried now | Jul 1, 2006 |
I appreciate this site, I like it, it is the best, but I really am very very worried now.
I am worried about the fact that sensitive data concerning my business could be collected,
I am worried because I need/want to conduct my business without any interference whatsoever,
I don’t like/want to share my clients’ data, I would like to keep them private.
I don’t like that my potential or new clients, know my old clients' names
... See more I appreciate this site, I like it, it is the best, but I really am very very worried now.
I am worried about the fact that sensitive data concerning my business could be collected,
I am worried because I need/want to conduct my business without any interference whatsoever,
I don’t like/want to share my clients’ data, I would like to keep them private.
I don’t like that my potential or new clients, know my old clients' names
I really hope you can find a suitable solution for all of us
Angioletta
[Edited at 2006-07-01 12:03] ▲ Collapse
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MarcPrior wrote:
I must also say that this issue has been handled in a way which is highly damaging to the image of ProZ.com, in several respects.
Marc
I'm quite astounded by the way this issue has been dealt with. I'm astounded by the 'implementation with no consultation' approach by site administrators and I'm astounded that even one of the prominent site moderators is contesting this feature. Were moderators not consulted before the launch? As I said before (and I'm sure Kostantin will forgive me if I reiterate my point... ), if the collecting of the confidential data will go ahead, many of us will have no option but to delete the profiles. Also, who guarantees us that no information will be ever collected? I must say my trust in Proz.com has been badly dented.
Giovanni
[Edited at 2006-07-01 12:39]
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angioletta garbarino wrote:
I appreciate this site, I like it, it is the best, but I really am very very worried now.
I am worried about the fact that sensitive data concerning my business could be collected,
I am worried because I need/want to conduct my business without any interference whatsoever,
I don’t like/want to share my clients’ data, I would like to keep them private.
I don’t like that my potential or new clients, know my old clients' names
You don't have to worry, Angioletta. Again, if you don't want others to make entries for you, you will be able to opt out of receiving them. They can not leave entries for you now.
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Ana Cuesta wrote:
With all due respect, Henry, you keep ellaborating about personal choice...
Will keep listening though. Thanks!
Thanks for joining in, Ana, and for listening.
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| Corrections to Marc's characterization of our philosophy | Jul 1, 2006 |
MarcPrior wrote:
As I see it, you have responded to specific concerns of the "out/out" camp, and the solution proposed with regard to this particular feature appears, at least at first sight, to be satisfactory.
Thanks for that feedback.
I believe however that this issue raises more fundamental issues concerning the ProZ.com model. I have drawn attention to these issues on past occasions, and also in the context of the present discussion.
With all due respect, Marc, I don't think you have ever understood ProZ.com's approach or model. When you have commented (sometimes in an authoritative manner) on our goals, motivations, etc., I often find your words inaccurate.
One of the attractions of ProZ.com is that it is a "one-stop shop" for the services needed by freelance translators. It offers discussion forums, a forum for terminology support, a knowledge base, discounts on products, services for marketing (profiles, hosting of translators' web pages), customer vetting, etc. etc. This one-stop aspect of ProZ.com makes it particularly attractive to translators seeking to establish themselves, extreme cases of which typically make their first appearance on ProZ.com with a message to the effect of "Hi, I'm a newbie, how do I get started?". Note: I am not suggesting that translators who make full use of ProZ.com's services are automatically such extreme cases, merely that ProZ.com is particularly attractive to such individuals.
You often characterize ProZ.com as a place for newbies -- and it is also a place for them... but if you looked at the years of experience in member profiles, you would know that there is not a preponderous of newbies here. As far as I can tell, the distribution among active members in years of experience is no different than that of translator associations, etc.
Amongst freelance translators, though, there is a substantial category of "free spirits". It is in the nature of the profession that many translators have atypical biographies, often for example having lived in more than one country or having switched professions; and their freelance status is not necessarily a matter of necessity, but a reflection of their outlook on life. Such people guard their independence jealously.
No argument from me there. As a translator, I would have considered myself part of that group.
Whereas the former group may find the ProZ.com approach of "we know what's good for your business" very reassuring
That is a completely inaccurate characterization. Nothing about our approach assumes we know what is good for our members' businesses.
This is one manifestation of what I have been saying for a long time: in seeking to serve the entire translation profession, ProZ.com is treading a very fine line. The adage that you can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time holds very true.
Right. When you have a large and diverse group, not everyone can be completely happy. That is why if you want to be a collaborating member of such a group, you must be prepared to compromise to a degree at times.
It is superfluous to say that ProZ.com, like any other business, is unable to offer all users and customers an infinite degree of personal choice.
Really? If you can offer up a collaborative workplace with an infinite degree of personal choice, I'll close ProZ.com and join.
There is however a fundamental concept of personal choice that should be open to all users, namely whether or not to take advantage of certain services.
It seems that this concept is at variance with the ProZ.com philosophy.
Again, nonsense. I think if you look around here, you will see a high degree of personal choice. (Would anyone else care to comment on this point?)
Rather than ProZ.com offering services which users and members are at liberty to use or ignore, users are, it seems, required to justify why they do not wish to use the services concerned, in the manner envisaged by ProZ.com.
That is a distortion of what is happening here. In deciding how to configure new systems, it is proper for us to take the needs and motivations of our members into consideration. Once we have understood the community's needs, we offer up choices, and site users are free to choose, no questions asked.
In fact, a substantial number of users have had to expend considerable effort merely to prevent ProZ.com from interfering in their relationships with their customers.
That is just silly. Why would a company that offers tools for translators to use in *building* client relationships, do anything that might damage them?
However satisfactory the outcome may be, both the fact that it was an issue in the first place, and the difficulty with which it was resolved, are grounds for concern, and unless there is a change in the ProZ.com philosophy, similar situations can be expected to arise again.
We have always, and will always, have discussions like this. I consider this a healthy part of the process of developing a unique new form of shared workplace among a diverse and global community.
I must also say that this issue has been handled in a way which is highly damaging to the image of ProZ.com, in several respects. I am reluctant to elaborate in this context to the mistakes I think have been made, since that would only draw more attention to them and damage ProZ.com's image further, which I am not interested in doing. If you (Henry) want my frank opinion, however, please contact me by e-mail and I will send you my comments privately.
You are welcome to make any critical comments you like here, Marc. I would suggest that you do so only if you can add insights not already made by others. When you do, bear in mind that for us, developing new features is a process, not an event. Our first offering on this new system was not perfect, that is why we are improving it. We will continue to improve it on an ongoing basis based on your feedback.
Thanks!
| | | | | Yes, Giovanni | Jul 1, 2006 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
no concrete answers, though. With due respect, Henry, can we have some direct statements? We all know your philosophy and where you are coming from.
Not everyone does, Giovanni. If you read others' posts here, you can see that some people are worried, and some think we have ulterior motives. I hope you will appreciate that we have to clear this up.
All I asked was: can we opt out/out, without the site collecting private information on the members who wish to opt out altogether?
Yes, you can.
| | | | | The heart of the matter | Jul 1, 2006 |
I was waiting a bit to see if Henry added to his post, but maybe that's it?
I have a couple of straightforward questions-
1) What were the concrete motivations behind this new feature? Did members request it? Did outsourcers request it? Has it proven to be a useful feature of other, nameless translation sites? Was it just someone's brainchild?
2) Why was such an important feature implemented without any prior discussion among members? The new profile format was hashed over for... See more I was waiting a bit to see if Henry added to his post, but maybe that's it?
I have a couple of straightforward questions-
1) What were the concrete motivations behind this new feature? Did members request it? Did outsourcers request it? Has it proven to be a useful feature of other, nameless translation sites? Was it just someone's brainchild?
2) Why was such an important feature implemented without any prior discussion among members? The new profile format was hashed over for months...
Jennifer
[Edited at 2006-07-01 12:57] ▲ Collapse
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