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Another job posting with no hint whatsoever as to the subject matter!
Thread poster: Trudy Peters

Trudy Peters  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 18:27
German to English
+ ...
Jun 30, 2006

Jobs moderators: Is there no way to prevent a job from being posted unless the subject matter is indicated?

Trudy

[Edited at 2006-06-30 17:24]


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Ines Garcia Botana  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:27
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
If there is a will... Jun 30, 2006

It must be a way!
Outsourcerers are doing it on purpose to see what the rates are like.

And if there is a will, there is a way!

Cheers!

Inés


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Tina Vonhof  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 16:27
Member (2006)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Don't bother asking Jun 30, 2006

Don't bother asking because by the time you get an answer (if you do), the deadline has passed.

Deadlines are another problem. What does 'delivery deadline' mean - delivery of the source text to the translator or delivery of the translated text to the agency? Often these deadlines are way too tight and there is no mention of what time zone, so you have no idea what you would be getting yourself into.

As far as I'm concerned these job postings are pretty useless. I feel sorry for those ProZ members who depend on bidding for these jobs to make a living.


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:27
English to German
+ ...
Please edit your posting Jun 30, 2006

Trudy,
Would you please edit your posting at your earliest convenience, by removing the link to the job? Please refer to the forum rules, which you have accepted by posting here. Thank you.

Trudy Peters wrote:

Jobs moderators: Is there no way to prevent a job from being posted unless the subject matter is indicated?


Not right now, as the Job Posting Rules do not specifically require this specification.

If you feel that such a rule is required, may I suggest to post a proposal?

Best regards,
Ralf


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:27
English to German
+ ...
Deadlines Jun 30, 2006

Slightly OT, but ...

Deadlines are another problem. What does 'delivery deadline' mean - delivery of the source text to the translator or delivery of the translated text to the agency? Often these deadlines are way too tight and there is no mention of what time zone, so you have no idea what you would be getting yourself into.

Both deadlines are explained on the Job Posting Form - the quoting deadline is pretty obvious. The delivery deadline is the deadline "for delivery of the work". As all times on ProZ.com (please check the FAQ), times are GMT.

Obviously, it's good practice to check with the outsourcer.

Best regards,
Ralf


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Trudy Peters  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 18:27
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Sorry, Ralf! Jun 30, 2006

I removed the link.

Where/to whom do I suggest this proposal?

The outsourcer could save himself a lot of trouble answering questions from bidders regarding the subject matter, and bidders not specialized in the subject could save themselves a lot of time -- or not bid at all.

OK - back to the Ge-Ar game!!!!!!!

Trudy


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:27
English to German
+ ...
New topic posted Jun 30, 2006

Thanks, Trudy - I really appreciate it.


Where/to whom do I suggest this proposal?

I just posted a new topic; looking forward to your contribution there.

The outsourcer could save himself a lot of trouble answering questions from bidders regarding the subject matter, and bidders not specialized in the subject could save themselves a lot of time -- or not bid at all.

I fully agree - thing is, we need a rule specifying the requirements.

Best regards,
Ralf


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Pablo Grosschmid  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 23:27
English to Spanish
+ ...
More filters in the jobs dashboard Jun 30, 2006

Dear Ralf,

Suggestions for more filters in the jobs dashboard:

If outsourcers had boxes for entering optional info on certain things when posting a job, it could be easy to create dashboard filters for members to set if they choose not to receive notifications for jobs for which that info is missing:

1) Subject matter, specialty
2) Turnaround time (instead of deadline) = number of days from reception of the material and PO to date of delivery of the job
3) Rate offered

In any case, outsourcers should be warned that jobs posted without a certain info would not be notified to those members who have selected not to receive notifications of such jobs. I believe that this would have a pedagogical effect.

The third filter proposed would be especially useful, since it could allow to filter out automatically a whole class of outsourcers.

Best,

Pablo


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 19:27
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
Minimum rate acts already as a job filter Jun 30, 2006

Pablo Grosschmid wrote:

Dear Ralf,

Suggestions for more filters in the jobs dashboard:

If outsourcers had boxes for entering optional info on certain things when posting a job, it could be easy to create dashboard filters for members to set if they choose not to receive notifications for jobs for which that info is missing:

1) Subject matter, specialty
2) Turnaround time (instead of deadline) = number of days from reception of the material and PO to date of delivery of the job
3) Rate offered

In any case, outsourcers should be warned that jobs posted without a certain info would not be notified to those members who have selected not to receive notifications of such jobs. I believe that this would have a pedagogical effect.

The third filter proposed would be especially useful, since it could allow to filter out automatically a whole class of outsourcers.

Best,

Pablo



Dear Pablo,

the mechanism to filter out low rates exists already, and it is based on our "minimum rate".
Each one of us, entering a minimum rate, will not receive any notification related to jobs where a lower rate has been offered.

That is, if there is any rate in the job, which is currently not strictly compulsory.

Of course, I support anything that would encourage or prompt outsourcers to specify the field of the documents/file to translate.


bye
Gianfranco


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Pablo Grosschmid  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 23:27
English to Spanish
+ ...
on rates for jobs Jun 30, 2006

you are right, Gianfranco,
but not all members have set minimum rates, or they are not published, or they depènd on subject, volume, urgency, etc.

the aim of the idea of a rates filter is that, apart from rules and guidelines to outsorcers, which I support, there should be a sort of "educational" tool encouraging serious outsourcers to state the rate they are willing to pay for a job (maybe 1% do that now), since the worst outcome of the whole site are all these postings just made to find the "the cheapest guys" on the planet.

Best,
Pablo


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 19:27
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
About educational tools Jun 30, 2006

Pablo Grosschmid wrote:
...
not all members have set minimum rates, or they are not published, or they depènd on subject, volume, urgency, etc.
...


Well, if members have not setup a minimum rate (a mechanism already available) I don't see how they would use a dashboard, where the same mechanism would only duplicate samething already in place.

And the minimum rate must be intended as the "absolute minimum", the rate for which we (personally) never would consider any job, not something that may vary according to subject, volume, or else.

What we could do is try to get more translators to know the market, the rates level, and setup correctly, in greater numbers, their minimum rates, but its value would always remain a personal decision.



Pablo Grosschmid wrote:
...
the aim of the idea of a rates filter is that, apart from rules and guidelines to outsorcers, which I support, there should be a sort of "educational" tool encouraging serious outsourcers to state the rate they are willing to pay for a job (maybe 1% do that now), since the worst outcome of the whole site are all these postings just made to find the "the cheapest guys" on the planet.
...


A few days ago it has been implemented a new "educational" tool, for job posters. When they enter a "proposed rate" lower than the average rate for a language pair, they see a message intended to make them aware about the discrepancy, and they are also offered the possibility to check the average rates, calculated on the membership base of this site for the job's language pair.

They have now more information available, right where it matters, but they are not forced to enter any particular rate.

It is just an "educational tool" that they may notice and use to set themselves differently on the market, or to understand better the rates. I think that this is a great change in the job posting page.


bye
Gianfranco




[Edited at 2006-06-30 21:12]


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 18:27
English to French
+ ...
Sorry for not proposing a solution... Jul 1, 2006

...but I just wanted to bring something to your attention. People have said earlier that some outsourcers purposedly don't indicate the subject matter because they are trying to get rates from the freelancers. Once the rate is nailed, they can easily give you a poor quality / difficult job.

I think what also needs to be looked at - and some of us need to be reminded of this - is that, depending on the subject and the urgency of the translation, I will charge more or less. I don't have a fixed rate for all jobs. When I translate automotive material, I charge higher than I do for general translation (or call it light). So, when I quote a rate on a job that doesn't mention the subject AND the type of document (by the way, to me, the subject is not enough), and after giving my general rate I find out that it's an automotive job AND a highly technical document, I regret having quoted my general rate, as the one that I should really ask for is 40% higher. Will the outsourcer bend before this? I think most of them will simply look for other fish...

I can't tell you how I think this problem can be solved, but I would like to add to the requests here. Other than the subject field, it would be equally as useful to have a document type field. It matters a lot to me whether it is a marketing brochure or a technical manual or a legal contract. I will translate automotive manuals, but will never translate a contract, even if it has to do with the automotive subject.



[Edited at 2006-07-01 00:49]


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Pablo Grosschmid  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 23:27
English to Spanish
+ ...
on rates filter Jul 1, 2006

Happy to see that there is this new educational tool for outsourcers.

since job notification settings have been moved to the dashboard, the filter to exclude jobs with rates below one's minimum appears to have gone. But even with that filter, if it still exists, you would receive all jobs posted wihout any rate indicated.


What I suggested was somewhat different:

Filter type: --Notify me jobs without XXX indicated: YES / NO ---

With XXX = rate, subject, file type, sample ...


AND outsourcers knowing that such filters exists.

Nice weekend,
Pablo


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Yolande Haneder  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:27
German to French
+ ...
rates on job Jul 1, 2006

I don't like indicating the rates on the job.

If I do it, I would like it to be used for the filters but not be published.

Everybody has his rate frame.
Giving a min. rate is of no use because it is of no use of the outsourcer at which rate the translator is allowed to anwer.

Giving a max. rate is no use because suddendly *all* translators are asking your maximal rate (i.e. asking much more than would they apply for a translation without a rate given) + you always get emails from other translators saying your rates are a scandal for a proper translation (whatever the rate is if you are not prepared to spend a fortune for any reason) + your competitors are very interested in the rate you pay your translators, look at your end price and compare them and can used them against you if they come to get the same offer from the direct client. (I already saw some offers in Proz for which I had been asked to quote so it surely happens in the other way, that's why I won't be specific anymore to a point of the competition recognizing the offer)

I prefer the translators to give me *their* rates and not be influenced by my budget.


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Pablo Grosschmid  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 23:27
English to Spanish
+ ...
fair enough, yolande Jul 1, 2006

I am not an agency, but occasionally I have to split large projects, or find colleagues for editing/proofreading, and also for jobs outside my language pairs or specialties, so I understand your concern.

On the other hand, not giving any indication on the rates one is willing to pay unfortunately puts one in the maximum-markup-regardless-of-quality crowd, whose postings most professional freelancers no not bother to answer.

As a rule, I only post a job on ProZ if I can not solve the problem using my pre-processed short-list of selected and tested colleagues.

The job system is not perfect, neither for outsourcers nor for freelancers, but it is what we have. There is nothing wrong in trying to reduce the work workload for everybody, by refining a few things.

In my opinion, outsources should remain free to indicate or not indicate certain details regarding the job proposed, and freelancers should be able to chose to receive or not receive notifications on posating including or ommitting certain dertails.

A nice weekend,
Pablo


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