| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Do you think Proz should add Trados certification as translators search criteria? Thread poster: Pablo Bouvier
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Ralf Lemster 
Germany
Local time: 06:06
English to German
+ ...
| Marketing speak | Aug 17, 2007 |
Hi Victor,
If it weren't for the manipulative press release quoted earlier in the thread and the suspicions about what may lie behind a "strategic partnership", this extra option box would be nothing to worry about.
Personally, I don't see any reason to get worried (mind you, I'm not certified, but then I tend to outsource via ProZ.com, including Connect; although I usually require Trados, I wouldn't be looking for certification).
I take it you're referring to the following sentence from the press release in particular:
SDL TRADOS Certification provides peace of mind for end-user corporations looking to deliver high quality translations.
Admittedly, the wording is borderline, as one could interpret this as an indication of a relationship between certification and translation quality. But I wouldn't read anything sinister between the lines, or indeed with respect to the strategic partnership. (Maybe this is because I have translated too many press releases announcing 'strategic' things... )
The way I read it (maybe Mike can confirm), being able to specifically search for certified providers will enhance process stability for outsourcers who have integrated SDL Trados into their process flows.
Of course, the directory search form should be adapted accordingly.
Best regards,
Ralf
| | | | | Thanks, Marc | Aug 17, 2007 |
Marc P wrote:
Aha! Are you saying that ProZ will not obstruct the option to showcase one's membership of another site?
You can do that in your profile now. People do.
| | | | Jerzy Czopik
Germany
Local time: 06:06
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Ken Cox wrote:
I'm appalled by the news that the site is lending its name and reputation to the claim that Trados certification is the key to good translation, which is patent nonsense.
Neither is ProZ nor is the certifiaction itself saying, that a certified user of Trados is a good (or bad) translator.
This is not the point here.
Again and again I read concerns, that this "overmarketing" may cause, that people will get jobs assigned only because they do have a certain tool. Are you (this is a general remark, not to be taken personally) really that naive to believe, that one can get a job just because of the fact he/she posesses Trados? Certainly not.
Do you really think someone with Trados Certification and no credentials as translator will get the assignment? I doubt this very much.
After having read numerous discussions about CAT tools in general I slowly get the impression, that there are a lot of Trados hater out there, who would even go so far and say, that Trados user are just worser translatos than others, but they get jobs by misusing the Trados market position. As Trados user I often feel personally insulted in such discussions.
We are quite far away from the original question, if ProZ should add this cerfitication as a search criterion. So to come back to this question I again say yes, it should. No difference to the question if I'm a sworn translator, which is from the quality point of view exactly the same problem. Being a sworn translator does not necessarily mean being a better one.
I have no objection to clients specifying use of Trados (it's their choice), and I have no objection to having Trados certification being listed as an optional selection criterion, but IMO Proz violates its neutrality if it suggests that use of Trados somehow guarantees good (or even superior) results -- and that is definitely not in the interest of users who choose to use other tools.
Which results do you mean? Translation results - no, again, see above. Technical results - yes, as there are enough people stating they can use a certain tool, but when it comes to it and you need to outsource your wor to such people you see, that they even don't have any rudimentary clue about how their tool works.
Certification will surely not show, that certified people do REALLY know their tool, bot will at least give you the first hint, that the certified person has had the necessity to learn her/his tool quite thoroughly. With this knowledge I then can forumlate my need in quite precise way and assume, the adresee will at least understand, what I mean.
Jerzy
| | | | | Personal insults | Aug 18, 2007 |
Jerzy Czopik wrote:
As Trados user I often feel personally insulted in such discussions.
I agree that we don't need any religious or political discussions as long as we have discussions about CAT tools...
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Stefan Pecen
Local time: 06:06
Member (2006)
English to Slovak
+ ...
| unacceptable development | Aug 18, 2007 |
I am strictly opposed to the mere idea of "certification", Trados/SDL should first improve their attitudes and processes, putting customer to the forefront
Being Trados user for a decade, I do not want to reiterate my experience with their lack of professionality and their drive to sell unfinished products, but my conclusion - they would not stand my certification....
And please, remember, SDL is not only CAT tool provider, but additionally, a major translation business... See more I am strictly opposed to the mere idea of "certification", Trados/SDL should first improve their attitudes and processes, putting customer to the forefront
Being Trados user for a decade, I do not want to reiterate my experience with their lack of professionality and their drive to sell unfinished products, but my conclusion - they would not stand my certification....
And please, remember, SDL is not only CAT tool provider, but additionally, a major translation business, and it changes the whole picture a great deal.... ▲ Collapse
| | | | jmd (X)
Local time: 06:06
English to Slovenian
+ ...
| Unethical and possibly illegal marketing (at least in the EU) | Aug 18, 2007 |
[ProZ.com Integrates SDL TRADOS Certification into Translator Search Criteria
Industry leaders partner to enhance opportunities for translators and facilitate standards for the translation supply chain
(...)
SDL TRADOS Certification provides peace of mind for end-user corporations looking to deliver high quality translations.
These misleading statements are put out in the name of proz.com. Jerzy, I can accept your sober statement quoted above, but the press release on the Connect! site does not clearly say that, and the sentences I have quoted are at least misleading, if not downright dishonest.
It all serves to foster the suspicion that ProZ has been downgraded to be a mere marketing channel for SDL Trados. The former Vice President of SDL Trados now works in this capacity for ProZ and directs the Connect! initiative, so perhaps we should not be surprised to read such misleading marketingbabble on the Connect site.
It is perfectly fair for certified users of SDL Trados to be able to show this on their ProZ profile. But it would be a pleasant surprise if the misleading rhetoric could be taken away - otherwise there will be repeated questions about the neutrality of ProZ. And the way the current press release tries to manipulate outsourcers to specify the certification as a "must-have" criterion for job postings is downright shameful (IMHO).
[Edited at 2007-08-15 10:10] [/quote]
Seconded.
Not so long ago a customer of mine wrote to me with the question whether SDL Trados certification really means - I believe they were approached and started to think about buying the sw - that the translator who has it provides quality.
And whether buying that sw would help them to significantly save on translation costs and bring in new customers. They don't know much about the process of translation, to say the least, but they know good work when they see it. I answered honestly that certification is nothing less and nothing more than confirmation that whoever has bought th software has paid for the course on how to use it and passed it. My detailed response was read at the board meeting. My conclusion is that taking SDL certification is indeed misrepresented to potential customers and buyers of the software alike.
Now, regarding tenders. I don't have a clue about the US, but in the EU you cannot -- cannot --- specify to the bidder which tool to use in order to be able to compete. If you did, you would lock bidders to the preferred sw vendor who possibly owns an important share of this specific sw market. This is called distortion of competition and is an illegal practice.
That is why translation memories from the EU bodies to their external translators are in the TMX format - to not lock anyone in to a specific software and to enable memories to be easily exchanged between different sw packages. When I receive a TM for reference from the EC, it is for the purpose of reference, and it is in the TMX format. What matters is the consistency, accuracy - the final result. Not the type of shovel used in the process, however fancy it might be.
Now, we know that Trados in the past tried to avoid TMX format that would be easily exchangeable with other tools. SDL has beaten Trados by providing exchangeability but then adopted the same - I dare say dishonest - policy.
Of course shareholders expect performance, after all Trados was bought off for - how many million bucks - 60? - or more? These days newer and cheaper tools are literally flooding the market and they can do almost everything SDL or Trados can. For a lot less money, too. That's where and why certification comes in.
When I alerted our government's translation service to the existence of WordFast several years ago, Trados was in vogue and those who said WordFast were in great minority. Slowly the situation reversed and the gov translation service started to hold courses for WordFast.
It is becoming increasingly difficult to survive for large companies like SDL. Now that they have acquired Passol, that is one competitor less and the Passolo goodies may be added to the palette of their products. No problem, it's a free market and anyone can buy what they want.
But do they really? Not by buying a product - or in the case of Proz - choosing a contractor based on a false belief to which they were led by unethical marketing, in this case of SDL and ProZ.
Even the marketing world has what is known as honour code: no misrepresenting of the product and no willful misleading of buyers. SDL and Proz insult the customers' intelligence with this move as well as ours. It may yet prove to be a bad move and backfire not even necessarily by ending up in the EU Court of Law.
I have printed out the web page with the infamy ooops - infamous content, the content of this forum and will be writing to my representatives in the European Commission come Monday morning, as a concerned individual.
I really thought Henry had more sense.
Sincerely,
Mia Dintinjana
[Edited at 2007-08-19 10:21]
| | | | Jerzy Czopik
Germany
Local time: 06:06
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
| Does not the law you mention only impact public orders? | Aug 18, 2007 |
We are in the private economy here and not within public tenders.
When a car manufacturers orders something here in Germany, he specifies his need very precisely and does not breach any law though.
When you buy a vacuum cleaner in Germany, a certain connector is required. And you cannot use a vacuum cleaner for 110 V in Germany, as we have 230 V here.
So why should an outsourcer (as me for example) not be able to set the usage of certain software as criterion for a job? If the... See more We are in the private economy here and not within public tenders.
When a car manufacturers orders something here in Germany, he specifies his need very precisely and does not breach any law though.
When you buy a vacuum cleaner in Germany, a certain connector is required. And you cannot use a vacuum cleaner for 110 V in Germany, as we have 230 V here.
So why should an outsourcer (as me for example) not be able to set the usage of certain software as criterion for a job? If the publishing house uses QuarkXPress and gives the job only to people, reporting having QuarkXPress in their profiles, would this also breach the rules in your opinion? I don't think so.
Just my opinion, of course. And I'm not a lawyer.
Jerzy
PS
I'm quite astonished, how high the emotions go, if Trados or Microsoft are involved. Many of you guys tend to use big words then... Would we put the same standard to another goods we have in our daily use, a lot of marketing and advertisment seen on TV or elswhere should be considered "unethical" or at least "aggresive" IMHO.
[Edited at 2007-08-18 21:07] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Stefan Pecen
Local time: 06:06
Member (2006)
English to Slovak
+ ...
| proz policies and "ideals" | Aug 18, 2007 |
I'm quite astonished, how high the emotions go, if Trados or Microsoft are involved. Many of you guys tend to use big words then... Would we put the same standard to another goods we have in our daily use, a lot of marketing and advertisment seen on TV or elswhere should be considered "unethical" or at least "aggresive" IMHO.
[Edited at 2007-08-18 21:07] [/quote]
Do we remember that, what we discuss here is in a way "marriage" between proz and sdl, aren't we?
pro... See more I'm quite astonished, how high the emotions go, if Trados or Microsoft are involved. Many of you guys tend to use big words then... Would we put the same standard to another goods we have in our daily use, a lot of marketing and advertisment seen on TV or elswhere should be considered "unethical" or at least "aggresive" IMHO.
[Edited at 2007-08-18 21:07] [/quote]
Do we remember that, what we discuss here is in a way "marriage" between proz and sdl, aren't we?
proz claims to be an open forum for both the translators and LSPs. Is it in line with one of the lsp's, by chance being also CAT vendor, seemingly enjoying a priviledged position in this "open" arena, using marketing lingo to support their claim of being the "standard".
That is why I am strictly opposed... ▲ Collapse
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Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 07:06
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
| Misleading advertising | Aug 18, 2007 |
Hi Jerzy,
misleading advertising (one containing false promises) certainly IS unlawful in EU. You cannot advertise your product like "if you'll eat our chocolate, you'll become eternally happy". I'm not a lawyer either, but I'd say the same goes for "SDL TRADOS Certification provides peace of mind for end-user corporations looking to deliver high quality translations", as neither Trados or any other certification in itself does guarantee any quality of translation, peace of mind or ... See more Hi Jerzy,
misleading advertising (one containing false promises) certainly IS unlawful in EU. You cannot advertise your product like "if you'll eat our chocolate, you'll become eternally happy". I'm not a lawyer either, but I'd say the same goes for "SDL TRADOS Certification provides peace of mind for end-user corporations looking to deliver high quality translations", as neither Trados or any other certification in itself does guarantee any quality of translation, peace of mind or eternal happiness...
Uldis
Added: Moreover- if you are not a "VERY VERY RICH" company, the EU court fine may bankrupt you.
U.
[Rediģēts plkst. 2007-08-19 00:50] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 01:06
English to Spanish
+ ...
| A threat for many of us | Aug 19, 2007 |
Stephen wrote:
And please, remember, SDL is not only CAT tool provider, but additionally, a major translation business, and it changes the whole picture a great deal....
Exactly, a giant!
A huge company about to start new offices... where...?
Very easy.... in Argentina!
[Edited at 2007-08-19 01:34]
| | | | Jerzy Czopik
Germany
Local time: 06:06
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
| Eating chocolate makes happy, even if not eternally | Aug 19, 2007 |
Uldis Liepkalns wrote:
Hi Jerzy,
misleading advertising (one containing false promises) certainly IS unlawful in EU. You cannot advertise your product like "if you'll eat our chocolate, you'll become eternally happy". I'm not a lawyer either, but I'd say the same goes for "SDL TRADOS Certification provides peace of mind for end-user corporations looking to deliver high quality translations", as neither Trados or any other certification in itself does guarantee any quality of translation, peace of mind or eternal happiness...
Uldis
Added: Moreover- if you are not a "VERY VERY RICH" company, the EU court fine may bankrupt you.
U.
You are of course right, misleading advertising is a problem. But... What is "high quality translation"? How do one achieve this? Was a company, not using Trados or any other CAT, not delivering quality translation then? All of you will say, of course yes, they have been delivering quality regardless the CAT tool they used. So taking this situation as the starting point, where already quality translation is provided without Trados (and I think we agree, that this should be the starting point, than what else do translators do? Either you deliver quality work or you are not a translator - I think this is as simple as that), the usage of Trados will not change the quality (or maybe raise it), but the achievment of quality might become easier then. Seen in this light the above advertising loses its misleading character.
Speaking about equal principles: I do not see any problem at all here. Who has said, that other CAT tool vendors cannot advertise on ProZ? Not only they can, but they also do. Should they have any certification programs, why should they not offer that via ProZ? I'm quite sure, ProZ would go the same way for any other certification program.
There is always someone who is the first on the market with something. As the first seat belts in cars were introduced, a lot of people were completly against their usage. AFAIR there were even science studies about how harmful the usage of seat belts could be. The the airbags were introduced - you remember? First only luxury cars were equipped with drivers airbag. Now all cars in Germany have this as standard... And still, there are some people, who say airbag may be dangerous.
As you see I do not care much about advertising, but what I do care about is the possibilty to showcase ALL my abilities via my profile. One of them is the ability to use Trados on high level. Being certified may be a proof for that for my customers. As any other of you I need to keep my existing customers and to find new. The market for translations is not an easy market, so any chance to keep existing and get acquire new customer is a good oportunity to be taken. Some 15 years ago this was being a sworn translator. So I did what was needed to become a sworn translator in Germany. This also involved an examination, which I passed. My experience as a translator was very young at that moment. Do you think, I was a better translator only because I was sworn after all? But it helped me to acquire new customers. If this certification will do the same and help me to acquire at least one new customer or to keep an existing one, so why should I opt it not to be shown in my profile?
IMHO this is not a "marriage" between ProZ and SDL, but just what they call it a "strategic partnership". What do other CAT vendors do think about it? Maybe they should also go for such partnership... But this would be their task, not the task of ProZ...
Jerzy
PS
Please note, that all my opinions presented in this thread are solely my private opinions and were are not in any way representing ProZ opinions. I do not act as a ProZ moderator here, but just as a private person.
| | | | Pablo Bouvier
Local time: 06:06
German to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I am also quite surprised.... | Aug 19, 2007 |
Jerzy Czopik wrote:
We are in the private economy here and not within public tenders.
When a car manufacturers orders something here in Germany, he specifies his need very precisely and does not breach any law though.
When you buy a vacuum cleaner in Germany, a certain connector is required. And you cannot use a vacuum cleaner for 110 V in Germany, as we have 230 V here.
So why should an outsourcer (as me for example) not be able to set the usage of certain software as criterion for a job? If the publishing house uses QuarkXPress and gives the job only to people, reporting having QuarkXPress in their profiles, would this also breach the rules in your opinion? I don't think so.
Just my opinion, of course. And I'm not a lawyer.
Jerzy
PS
I'm quite astonished, how high the emotions go, if Trados or Microsoft are involved. Many of you guys tend to use big words then... Would we put the same standard to another goods we have in our daily use, a lot of marketing and advertisment seen on TV or elswhere should be considered "unethical" or at least "aggresive" IMHO.
[Edited at 2007-08-18 21:07]
I am also quite surprised: If I go to the supermarket, and buy meal, I have to pay the price that the provider marks. The same, if I buy a car or any other goods.
Nevertheless, the translation market is the only one I know in which it is the client (the translation agencies) and not the provider (the translators) who marks the prices.
Imho, if an agency needs a work in QuarkXpress, it should look for a layout designer and not for a translator...
Or it should pay for it an extra charge, as what it really is: a volunteer additional service (as like to use certain CAT tool).
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jmd (X)
Local time: 06:06
English to Slovenian
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| why should an outsourcer not be able to set the usage of a criterion for a job | Aug 19, 2007 |
(quote)
So why should an outsourcer (as me for example) not be able to set the usage of certain software as criterion for a job? If the publishing house uses QuarkXPress and gives the job only to people, reporting having QuarkXPress in their profiles, would this also breach the rules in your opinion? I don't think so.
Just my opinion, of course. And I'm not a lawyer. <
This is not simply the issue of setting another criterion or option. (But yes, wouldn't it be si... See more (quote)
So why should an outsourcer (as me for example) not be able to set the usage of certain software as criterion for a job? If the publishing house uses QuarkXPress and gives the job only to people, reporting having QuarkXPress in their profiles, would this also breach the rules in your opinion? I don't think so.
Just my opinion, of course. And I'm not a lawyer. <
This is not simply the issue of setting another criterion or option. (But yes, wouldn't it be simpler, if it were!)
What is quoted on that web page IS willful misleading and misrepresentation. I translated part of the EU competition law and related EU directives into my language in the past nine years, and a couple of related lawsuits. Can't avoid it, so I do take an interest. There are other companies and cases besides Microsoft.
FYI, competion law is not restricted to public tenders but to anyone offering goods or services on the market. It provides rules on how big companies may and may not act. It exists for consumer protection and benefit. Why? If big companies took control of the market, this would affect consumers. The market should benefit the consumer, or to put it backwards, the consumer does not exist in order to support the enterprises who sell their products.
>I'm quite astonished, how high the emotions go, if Trados or Microsoft are involved. Many of you guys tend to use big words then... Would we put the same standard to another goods we have in our daily use, a lot of marketing and advertisment seen on TV or elswhere should be considered "unethical" or at least "aggresive" <
As a consumer living in the EU, if I find that if a product has been sold to me by lying about what it can do, I can file a complaint and claim damages. Call it common sense, Jerzy. Nothing to do with emotions, this is not personal. I guess in this case someone has a hard time imagining freelancers as having any (legal) power at all.
As a colleague of mine puts it, "there is an apparent conflict of interest here - ProZ claims to be an open forum for translators / language service providers, but with one particular LSP in special position ...
To maintain credibility, ProZ need to distance themselves from this attempt."
But will they?
As Stephen points out, the crux of the matter is that the company in question, SDL, owns a large market share on the EU market with its software and is also - oh surprise, surprise - one of the biggest translation providers (to Microsoft, for example, for which they won the bid for all languages into which Office and Vista are localized). ProZ has linked with this specific company.
Aside from ethics, competition law - not to mention other big competitors with proprietary products (which are not available on the market) - insulting the intelligence of people to whom you are trying to market a product - be it big a business enterprise with no knowledge of what translation entails, or (boutique) freelance businesses - is not a smart policy. Again, at least not in the EU.
Best,
Mia Dintinjana
[Edited at 2007-08-19 10:27]
[Edited at 2007-08-19 13:29] ▲ Collapse
| | | | cmwilliams (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:06
French to English
+ ...
| There's a difference | Aug 19, 2007 |
Jerzy Czopik wrote:
Speaking about equal principles: I do not see any problem at all here. Who has said, that other CAT tool vendors cannot advertise on ProZ? Not only they can, but they also do. Should they have any certification programs, why should they not offer that via ProZ? I'm quite sure, ProZ would go the same way for any other certification program.
It's not about advertising as such. It's the 'partnership' with Proz and the way it's being advertised by SDL on this site that is extremely worrying and misleading. For example, in their press release of January 2007, they announce that Semens A&D has endorsed the certification programme and that Trados certification "provides corporations with a recognized standard of excellence when looking to utilize the services of freelancers and Language Service Providers within the translation supply chain."
Of course we, as translators, realise that using a particular CAT tool doesn't necessarily guarantee excellence, but it may just be enough to convince an end client who has no experience of the language business. And if the provider of the CAT tool also just happens to be a provider of translation services? Well, what a coincidence!
As this certification programme now exists, freelancers should be able to display it in their profiles but I strongly object to it being one of the main search criteria listed in the freelance directory. It would make more sense to have membership of ATA or IOL listed as one of the main criteria. I feel that this 'partnership' with SDL has very serious consequences and I can only hope that Henry will take our concerns seriously.
| | | | Selcuk Akyuz
Türkiye
Local time: 07:06
English to Turkish
+ ...
| Freelancers Directory | Aug 19, 2007 |
cmwilliams wrote:
As this certification programme now exists, freelancers should be able to display it in their profiles
Seconded
but I strongly object to it being one of the main search criteria listed in the freelance directory.
Definitely, it is not acceptable for me as well. In no way!
It would make more sense to have membership of ATA or IOL listed as one of the main criteria.
Disagree! But let's discuss it in another topic.
[Edited at 2007-08-19 10:26]
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