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Make KudoZ language list more in depth (T)
Thread poster: Libero_Lang_Lab

Libero_Lang_Lab  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:53
Member (2006)
Russian to English
+ ...
Apr 4, 2003

Hi

I\'ve raised this question before, but it still stands and the more I think about it the more I think it deserves taking on board.



A whole bunch of \'minor\' languages remain bunched together under the slightly unflattering sobriquet of zzzzzzzzzzzzzz (are these languages boring, sleep inducing, or just last in the queue?)



I realise that this has probably been done on the basis that questions are hardly ever asked about Cree, Mizo or Klingon. But Georgian? Azerbaijani?



Surely it is not hard to transplant the same extensive list of languages used for jobs postings etc into the KudoZ framework?



In some ways the minor languages deserve their own tag even more than the major ones. If I post a question about Georgian - as I have done just now - I want it to be emailed to the handful of people who have expertise in this language. This ain\'t gonna happen when it goes under the name of zzzzz!

When I post a question in Russian or French, I don\'t really care if it is mailed out individually to all the folk who might answer that question - I know that, by the law of averages, a good few of them will be on hand anyway, and reading the KudoZ board.

See what I mean?

I really do think this is worth taking into consideration...





Moreover, as one of the claimed benefits of KudoZ points is that they offer a translator the chance to demonstrate their expertise in x, y or z language to potential clients, then it is a bit harsh on the humble Xhosa, Yoruba or Zulu translator to see the fruits of their labour and aforesaid expertise presented as a totally non-transparent bunch of zzzzzzzzzzzzzzs. What\'s a potential client gonna make of that?

Nuff respect

Dan



[ This Message was edited by: The Tautologist on 2003-04-04 20:20]

[ This Message was edited by: The Tautologist on 2003-04-04 20:33]

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2005-02-03 16:33]


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Harry Bornemann  Identity Verified
Mexico
English to German
+ ...
possible explanation Apr 4, 2003

Maybe at this point, the programmer fell asleep on the z key?

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Patricia CASEY  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:53
English to Spanish
+ ...
Is that the reason... Apr 4, 2003

why your eyes are closed in the picture, Dan?





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xxxPaul Roige
Spain
Local time: 02:53
English to Spanish
+ ...
Collateral damage? Apr 5, 2003

Looks like collateral damage in the survival war. In a world where wild animals are jailed in zoos, and small tribes are bulldozed out of existence, zzzzzzzzetaing a \'small\' language looks like a sign of acquiescence with such a sad state of affairs.

I want to think no harm is intended, but harm is indeed inflicted. Time to reconsider perhaps, unless it all comes down to \"hits\" and commercial realities.

Sure not...

Paul



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Uwe Kirmse  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:53
Polish to German
+ ...
zzzzzzz Apr 5, 2003

Yesterday I wanted to ask a Polish>Armenian question, but there\'s no Armenian in the dropdown box. I haven\'t asked, because I didn\'t want to enter zzzzzzzz...



I think, it\'s impossible to offer really all languages in this dropdown box. But it should be possible to enter a language manually, that\'s not on the list. It makes more sens to enter \"Armenian\" > \"Kashubian\" than to choose zzzzzzzzzzz to zzzzzzzzz from the box.



I\'d suggest to offer the option to enter other languages manually only after clicking on a \"more languages\" link, because otherwise some people would enter even \"English\", but misspelled.


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 21:53
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
Minor languages Apr 5, 2003

Dear colleagues,



the moderators and site staff have been discussing the languages available for selection on the site, even recently the discussion has been revived.



The problem with minor languages is that there are so many that is not possible to have them listed for selection in all pages, for practical reasons.



A large list of languages would create two problems:



1. each page would be much slower to load (members with a slow connection will not be pleased...)



2. the selection of any major languages (probably 99.9% of the traffic) would be much more difficult, having to negotiate a large number of minor languages before finding the desired item.



I\'ll provide two examples to explain this point:



Spanish (starting with S) is 18th in a list of 22 languages starting with \'S\', and you have to go past entries such as Sanskrit, Shan, Shona, Sindhi and Somba.

All together those 5 languages have any interest for a small number of members, but their presence is slowing down the selection of Spanish for over 5000 members! Got my point?



Similarly, to reach Italian, almost 3000 users have to go through I-kiribati, Igbo, Iloko, etc...





The current selection is based on the major languages plus some specific request received for site users.



Probably some of the items currently available could be deleted and some important languages are missing.

If you wish to have a languages included, contact the site staff and ask for them.

They will probably include it but, with the current selection method there is a limit to the total number of languages that can be listed.



Gianfranco



[ This Message was edited by: gianfranco on 2003-04-05 10:06]


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Harry Bornemann  Identity Verified
Mexico
English to German
+ ...
zzz Other zzz Apr 5, 2003

.. this new form of the entry looks already more awake



I don\'t know how many selection menus or pages are affected, but a solution could be to make those pull-down menus customizable.



Then we had to select only between very few entries and had a good chance to hit it with the first keystroke.



Or how about remembering the last applied selection as default value?



Or make the default value customizable?



(And how many byte would the complete list actually contain and who is using a 28K modem or slower nowadays?)

[ This Message was edited by: Harry_B on 2003-04-05 11:57]


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 21:53
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
Customisable lists Apr 5, 2003

Quote:


On 2003-04-05 11:49, Harry_B wrote:



...snip...



I don\'t know how many selection menus or pages are affected, but a solution could be to make those pull-down menus customizable.



...snip...





I\'m writing a request to the programmers asking if it\'s possible to implement some degree of customization in the list of languages presented to each user.



The ideal solution should make possible to list more languages, but only to the users interested on them and, at the same time, a faster selection for everybody.



I don\'t know how and when this change will be made, but it would improve the site usability.



Gianfranco

[ This Message was edited by: gianfranco on 2003-04-05 14:15]

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DGK T-I  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:53
Member (2003)
Georgian to English
+ ...
Taking the zzzzzzzz out of zzzzzzzzz Apr 5, 2003

I too would welcome Georgian and other \"other\" languages, being treated in their own right as \"non-other\" languages are.

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Uwe Kirmse  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:53
Polish to German
+ ...
Working languages Apr 5, 2003

When I edit the working languages on my profile and click there on \"See more languages\", there\'s a lot of languages available, which are not available at KudoZ.



Before implementing an option for customization the first step could be to have in the drop-down-box at least all the languages, that were indicated as working languages by at least one ProZ.com member.



Perhaps we won\'t even need any customization, when there will be all these languages. I think, it\'s not a discrimination of minor languages, if KudoZ has for all of them only the option \"zzzOthers\", because it makes no sense to ask KudoZ questions in languages, that are not indicated as working languages or languages of interest by any member. There\'s nobody to answer them. But it could be understood as a discrimination, if working languages of ProZ.com members are not listed. (eg. Armenian - http://www.proz.com/pro/24092) BTW - this will also decrease their chances to earn KudoZ points.



To working languages (drop down on profile editing) there may be added languages on special request of interested members, but only of such members, who indicate those languages as working language or at least as language of interest. And KudoZ (+ Jobs) should simply display all working languages of members to offer the full range of services available at ProZ.com.

[ This Message was edited by: uwe on 2003-04-06 14:31]


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 21:53
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
Different sets available in different pages Apr 5, 2003

Apparently there are different sets of languages available in different parts of the site.

I have just seen that in the Jobs Area there are many more languages than the KudoZ area.



I will try to investigate and ask the programmers what is the rationale behind these apparent discrepancies, and then perhaps try to rationalize the set of

languages available and perhaps achieve some degree of customization, to improve the site usability.



Gianfranco



[ This Message was edited by: gianfranco on 2003-04-05 19:59]


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Araksia Sarkisian  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 02:53
Armenian to Polish
+ ...
Thank you Dan! And thank you Uwe! Apr 6, 2003

As I mentioned before, I\'ve tried several times to indicate the problem, but unfortunately, no one from the Staff gave me any responce.



For more than 6 million people Armenian is a mothe tongue, the nation is spread all over the world, there are hundreds, thousands of daily newspapers, magazines, other periodicals in Armenian language!



In US and Canada only, Armenian is taught in eight institutions!

There is also a Linguistics Institute of the Armenian Academy of Sciences in Yerevan, Armenia.



A lot of foreign researchers come to Armenia to learn Armenian language, so to have an access and to be able to read the old manuscripts, kept in our museums and libraries, and read the first translations of ancient scholars....



One of the oldest languages of the world, with the almost unchanged alfabet from the first years of it\'s origin, dated from 362 A.D....is now classified by ProZ experts as ..ZZZ...



Quote:


On 2003-04-05 18:25, uwe wrote:

When I edit the working languages on my profile and click there on \"See more languages\", there\'s a lot of languages available, which are not available at KudoZ.



Before implementing an option for customization the first step could be to have in the drop-down-box at least all the languages, that were indicated as working languages by at least one ProZ.com member.



Perhaps we won\'t even need any customization, when there will be all these languages. I think, it\'s not a discrimination of minor languages, if KudoZ has for all of them only the option \"zzzOthers\", because it makes no sense to ask KudoZ questions in languages, that are not indicated as working languages or languages of interest by any member. But it could be understood as a discrimination, if working languages of ProZ.com members are not listed. (eg. Armenian - http://www.proz.com/pro/24092)



[ This Message was edited by: uwe on 2003-04-05 22:56]







For those, who know not much about my native language...Please, find below some useful info and links:



Armenian is the native language of Armenia, a landlocked country in Transcaucasia bordering Turkey and Iran. It is spoken by the vast majority of the population, or close to 3¨ö million people. There are also about 2000,000 speakers in neighboring Georgia and sizable communities in Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, and the United States.

The Armenians are an ancient people whose history dates back about 2,500 years. The Armenian alphabet was invented by Mesrop Mashtots, a missionary, about the year 400 A.D. Originally it consisted of thirty-six letters, six vowels and thirty consonants, to which two letters were added in the 12th century. / from:

http://www.worldlanguage.com/Languages/Armenian.htm



links for language professionals:



http://www.lmp.ucla.edu/profiles/profa02.htm

http://www.umich.edu/~iinet/asp/summerinst.htm



The old Armenian language classic \"GRABAR\" is considered to be as the origin of all old and modern languages / from:

http://www.arminco.com/hayknet/haylezu/haylez-e.htm



And more about the language research:



Mesrob Mashdotz : a 5th century life : a retelling of Koriun\'s Life of Mashdotz; Elise Antreassian Bayizian; Unknown Binding (Hard to Find)



New Approaches to Medieval Armenian Language and Literature (Dutch Studies in Armenian Language and Literature ; 3); J.J.S. Weitenberg (Editor); Hardcover (Special Order



A dictionary of the Armenian Church; Maghak¡Æia ¬ÖOrmanean; Unknown Binding (Hard to Find)



A dictionary of the Armenian Church; Maghak¡Æia ¬ÖOrmanean; Unknown Binding (Hard to Find)



Proceedings of the Fifth International Conference on Armenian Linguistics : McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, May 1-5, 1995 (Anatolian And); Dora Sakayan (Editor



Anthology of Western Armenian Literature;Hardcover (Special Order)



American National Standard System for the Romanization of Armenian;Paperback; $7.85 (Special Order)



English-Armenian Armenian English Modern Dictionary; M. Koushaksjian; Hardcover (Hard to Find)



Armenian-English/English-Armenian (Hippocrene Concise Dictionary); Diana Aroutunian, et al; Paperback; $10.75



Armenian Dictionary in Transliteration : Western Pronunciation : Armenian-English English-Armenian; Thomas, J. Samuelian; Paperback; $10.75



Hippocrene Compact Dictionary : Armenian-English English-Armenian; Diana Aroutunian, Susanna Aroutunian; Paperback; $8.05



English-Armenian, Armenian-English Dictionary (Armenian & Eng.); M. Koushakdjian; Hardcover; $59.95 (Special Order)



New Dictionary Armenian-English; Mathias Bedrossian; Hardcover; $45.00 (Special Order)



English-Armenian Modern Dictionary; Mardiros,Khantrouni, Dicran Koushakdjian; Hardcover; $45.00 (Special Order)



Elementary Modern Armenian Grammar (Hippocrene Language Studies); Kevork H. Gulian; Paperback; $8.05



English Armenian Armenian English Dictionary; H. Yacobian; Hardcover; $37.50 (Back Ordered)



English Armenian Modern Dictionary;Hardcover; $35.00 (Special Order)



Armenian English Modern Dictionary;Hardcover; $35.00 (Special Order)



Spoken East Armenian; Fairbank; Paperback; $15.00 (Special Order)



Spoken East Armenian/Course Book With Cassettes; L. Gordon; Hardcover; $85.00 (Special Order)



An Introduction to Classical Armenian;Hardcover (Special Order)



A Textbook of Modern Western Armenian;Paperback (Special Order)



First International Conference on Armenian Linguistics : Proceedings; 1st, University of p International Conference on Armenian Linguistics; Hardcover; $50.00 (Special O



Bark Galianosi\' : The Greek-Armenian Dictionary to Galen; John A.C. Greppin; Hardcover; $50.00 (Special Order)



Handbook of Armenian Dialectology; John A.C. Greppin; Hardcover; $50.00 (Special Order)



An Introduction to Classical Armenian; Robert W. Thomson; Hardcover; $25.00 (Special Order)



Proceedings of the Fourth International Conference on Armenian Linguistics : Cleveland State University, Cleveland, Ohio, September 14-18, 1991; John A.C. Greppin (Editor);



Studies in Classical Armenian Literature (Anatolian and Caucasian Studies); John A. C. Greppin; Hardcover; $50.00 (Special Order)



Modern Western Armenian;Hardcover; $185.00 (Special Order)



A Textbook of Modern Western Armenian; Kevork B. Bardakjian; Paperback; $15.00



English-Armenian Armenian English-Dictionary; M. Koushakdjian; Hardcover (Publisher Out Of Stock)



Armenian, Western (Afar 15); Bradakig; Hardcover; $185.00 (Special Order)



Renyi Picture Dictionary : West Armenian and English; P. Renyi; Hardcover; $19.95 (Back Ordered)



Vocabulearn-Armenian/English Level 1/Wordlist and 2 Cassettes;Audio Cassette; $14.35



Vocabulearn-Armenian/English : Level 2 / Wordlist and Cassettes;Hardcover; $15.95 (Special Order)



Language Connections : Kindship of Armenian With Sister Indo-European Language; Sarkis S. Saryan; Hardcover; $28.00 (Special Order)



A Course in Modern Western Armenian : Exercises and Commentary; Thomas J. Samuelian; Hardcover; $40.00 (Special Order)



Course in Modern Western Armenian Dictionary and Linguistic Notes; Thomas J. Samuelian; Hardcover; $19.95 (Special Order)



Armenian Dictionary in Transliteration : Western Pronunciation : Armenian-English, English-Armenian; Thomas J. Samuelian; Hardcover; $16.00 (Special Order)



Armenian Eastern Newspaper Reader & Grammar; R. David Zorc; Hardcover; $69.00 (Special Order)



Armenian (Eastern)-English Dictionary; Louisa Baghdasarian; Hardcover; $89.00 (Special Order)



Alphabet arm¬Óenien; Seta Papazian; Unknown Binding (Hard to Find)



A Reverse Analytical Dictionary of Classical Armenian (Trends in Linguistics : Documentation, No 9); Paul Jungmann, J.J.S. Weitenberg; Hardcover; $294.85 (Special Order)



Armenian Loanwords in Turkish; Robert Dankoff; Unknown Binding (Hard to Find)



An introduction to the study of classical Armenian; Robert Godel; Unknown Binding (Hard to Find)



Parallel Aligned Text and Bilingual Concordance of the Armenian and Greek Versions of the Book of Jonah (Dutch Studies in Armenian Language and Liter); J.J.S. Weitenberg; P



Armenisch - Turkisch. Etymologische Betrachtungen Ausgehend Von Materialien Aus Dem Hemsingebiet (Dutch Studies in Armenian Language and Literature ; Uwe Blasing; Hardcov

from:

http://www.cilicia.com/armo7_language.html



Our heritage is our language....

Thank you very much...





[ This Message was edited by: Araksia on 2003-04-06 01:21]

[ This Message was edited by: Araksia on 2003-04-06 01:26]

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Marcus Malabad  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 02:53
Member (2002)
German to English
+ ...
getting rid of the zzzz's Apr 6, 2003

Yes, as Gianfranco has written above, this has been brought up before (by me and others). I enclose Henry\'s position below.



First of all, the Kudoz list is different (or was different) from the jobs and \'search for pro\' list. There are many very minor languages which should not be in both lists and there are still others that should be included (a glaring example is Armenian and other CIS languages).



Henry did include some languages that I suggested (e.g., Frisian, Sorbian, etc.) but I still think that many should be removed (Aztec, Chin, Chan, Mayanlanguages [sic]).



If you think that a language should be included, please write a support request.



Henry:

\"This is one of those areas in which we decided to leave the headaches

of gray areas to others. The list of languages you see is the list

arrived at by the ISO (http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/IG/ert/iso639.htm ), with additions of languages upon special request from community members (the ISO also adds them by request; the Dakotas obviously applied), and the addition of a few languages the ISO included in their two-letter code but left out of their three-letter code. (We had to do this for backward compatibility when we made the transition from 2- to 3-letter.)



Thanks for offering to help. The simplest thing for us to do is to make a list as complete as we require--but not too complete; going from 435 to 6000 languages would be ill-advised--and then apply it

uniformly around the site, leaving it to user to exercise judgment on whether or not a job/question in that language makes sense. Which additional language was requested by the person who wrote to you? You suggest adding Rheto-Romansch, Frisian, Maltese, Ilocano, Bisayan, Quechua, Sorbian...anything else?\"


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Aida Hakobyan
Russian to English
+ ...
Armenian is definitly not zzz Apr 6, 2003

I must second Araksia and say that even being moderator and reading most of the topics on the modeartors forums I don\'t understand the logic. Who decided which language shoul be in the zzz lis which should not. If the case is the number of speakers then in the language list there are languages with the same number of speakers or less.

I have seen Gianfrancos comment and knowing that he is one of the most active moderators may be he will help us to delete the zzz list and to have our languages.

As stated Araksia

\"One of the oldest languages of the world, with the almost unchanged alfabet from the first years of it\'s origin, dated from 362 A.D....is now classified by ProZ experts as ..ZZZ... \".

For those who do not know the first translaton of Bible in the smallest format ever possible, handwritten and pictured is in Armenian and is kept in Yerevan Matenadaran (Manusript storage).



Regards,

Aida





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lien
Netherlands
Local time: 02:53
English to French
+ ...
Thank you, Araksia Apr 6, 2003

for this wonderful piece of information about Armenia and the Armenian.

I don\'t deny that I am glad to see them very alive and kicking. They have still Armenian studies at the university of Leiden.



Do you know that we have an Armenian church in Amsterdam, (1714), in one of the oldest part of the city with a wonderful gablestone and gate?



Lien



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