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Thread poster: Libero_Lang_Lab

Libero_Lang_Lab  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
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Apr 6, 2003

Another thought on a related subject:



While, based on demand, it might be too much to have language discussion boards in the forum section for each language individually, I\'m wondering whether there is not a case for having, for example a Baltic Languages board (for Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian), a Caucasian Languages board (for Armenian, Georgian and Azeri... as well as Lezghin, Chechen, Abkhaz etc etc), and maybe - though this is not my field so I might be on thin ice here - an Indian Sub continent Languages board....





[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2005-02-02 22:13]


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Araksia Sarkisian  Identity Verified
Poland
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Armenian to Polish
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Only if using the linguistic and not the geopolitical approach...:) Apr 6, 2003

Quote:


On 2003-04-06 15:10, The Tautologist wrote:

Another thought on a related subject:



While, based on demand, it might be too much to have language discussion boards in the forum section for each language individually, I\'m wondering whether there is not a case for having, for example a Baltic Languages board (for Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian), a Caucasian Languages board (for Armenian, Georgian and Azeri... as well as Lezghin, Chechen, Abkhaz etc etc), and maybe - though this is not my field so I might be on thin ice here - an Indian Sub continent Languages board....







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Libero_Lang_Lab  Identity Verified
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Azeri is a Turkish dialect??? Apr 6, 2003

I don\'t think so.

It is a language in its own right - very close to Turkish and belonging to the Turkic language group.

Anyway, the point of my posting was not really to discuss comparative linguistics.

I\'d be all in favour of having seperate discussion boards for each, but based on my primative understanding of the technological implications, this would be unworkable.



PS: \"minor\" was put in inverted commas for a reason....



PPS \"As a general rule no language forum should be established unless it is an official language of a recognized State.\" The last time I looked, Azerbaijan enjoyed such recognition. It even has its own football team.













[ This Message was edited by: The Tautologist on 2003-04-06 17:03]

[ This Message was edited by: The Tautologist on 2003-04-06 17:22]


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Harry Bornemann  Identity Verified
Mexico
English to German
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What is the exact definition? Apr 6, 2003

Is there any widely recognised definition what makes the difference between dialects and languages?

On one hand, there are so many closely related languages, on the other hand, many people don\'t understand many of the dialects of their mothertongue.





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Uwe Kirmse  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:33
Polish to German
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Language forums Apr 6, 2003

Dan, I\'ve made a search for ProZ.com members working in the English>Armenian language pair. I\'ve found 5 individual members (no agencies), who have earned at least 1 KudoZ point, that means, they have been active at ProZ.com in some way. (others wouldn\'t be interested in a forum.)

Sorry, but a forum for 5 members would not be effective.

Most of language forums have been made, because people have asked for them, who wanted to discuss in these languages. If somebody asks for an Estonian forum, Henry and his staff may check, if there will be a chance for some activity. But I think, the asking person should be someone, who wants to discuss in this language.


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Libero_Lang_Lab  Identity Verified
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mutual comprehension... Apr 6, 2003

...is not a defining criterion for classifying one language as a dialect of another.



An Afghan from the north east of Afghanistan will understand almost all of what a Tajik (from Tajikistan) says - yet one speaks Dari and the other speaks Tajik - and the two are seperate languages.





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Uldis Liepkalns  Identity Verified
Latvia
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Tut, tut, Dan Apr 6, 2003

Quote:


for example a Baltic Languages board (for Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian),





First, calling many of these languages \"minor\" you endanger your prospects to ever visit some of these countries, imagine, you visit Checnja and somebody reckognises you: Look, that\'s the guy who called us Chechens \"minor\"

Second, Estonian isn\'t Baltic language any more than English is.
[addsig]

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Harry Bornemann  Identity Verified
Mexico
English to German
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here is the answer for the initial question Apr 6, 2003

..it is not a good idea to have language boards for grouped languages, because there could arise problems by the political or ethnical touchiness particularly of close relatives..

In Germany we can laugh if a Dutch says: \"German is virtually Dutch - with a very very strange accent!\" (Rudi Carell in TV)

In other countries this may not be funny.

[ This Message was edited by: Harry_B on 2003-04-06 19:20]


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Libero_Lang_Lab  Identity Verified
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"minor" Apr 6, 2003

uldis - that was why I put it in inverted commas, as I\'ve already said once. My point was that I do not consider them minor languages, but that they are often treated as such...

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Uldis Liepkalns  Identity Verified
Latvia
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OK, let's the "minor" go, but Apr 7, 2003

But I do not see any sense to create such a boards- and by what you\'ll sort them? By geographic location? Polish is Slavic tongue, Lithuanian and Latvian- Baltic tongues, Estonian- Finno-Ugric language.

By language groups? OK, maybe Western Slavs are able to more or less understand each other, but Latvians do not understand Lithuanians and vice versa, Finns and Estonians can not communicate with Hungarians... are all Scandinavian speakers able to communicate between themselves? If not, what will be the purpose to group any of these languages togrether?


[addsig]


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GoodWords  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 16:33
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DIfference between a language and a dialect Apr 7, 2003

Quote:


On 2003-04-06 17:18, Harry_B wrote:

Is there any widely recognised definition what makes the difference between dialects and languages?





A language is a dialect with an army [and an navy].



This little aphorism is sometimes cited as a joke, but in fact this pragmatic definition based on history makes more sense than a linguistic definition. A discussion of its origin can be found at http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/armynavy.html. Here is another comment on it: http://www.olestig.dk/scotland/weinreich.html. A further discussion on the difference between a language and a dialect can be found at http://www.terralingua.org/Definitions/DLangDialect.html.

[ This Message was edited by: GoodWords on 2003-04-07 18:34]

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Libero_Lang_Lab  Identity Verified
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point taken uldis Apr 7, 2003

i do realise that estonian and latvian/lithuanian are from different groups... and i see the problem that this would create.



i guess this idea is a half-baked one - for that trio of languages at least.



just seems shame that, albeit for a relative few that might want to, there\'s nowhere obvious to discuss issues related to these languages - but as barnum said, you can\'t please all of the people all of the time (not sure how you\'d say that in estonian)





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Harry Bornemann  Identity Verified
Mexico
English to German
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imagine.. Apr 7, 2003

.. the world became peaceful and one country .. we would need a new definition for the term \"language\"



.. you may say, I\'m a dreamer,

   but I\'m not the only one .. 




   (your duck pills)



If you determine the criterion to distinguish a language from a dialect independently of the authorities usually determining the criterion, this may reactively affect these authorities to an extend equal to your force of expressiveness times your area of audience and will be noticed in form of a generated tension. (And tension times volume equals energy.)
It might swing back, though.

[ This Message was edited by: Harry_B on 2003-04-08 03:03]


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Libero_Lang_Lab  Identity Verified
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can i have... Apr 7, 2003

...some duck pills please - they\'re obviously very good.

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DGK T-I  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
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Georgian to English
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I agree there are difficulties, but...... Apr 7, 2003

I can see that there are difficulties, but at the moment there is nowhere at all to discuss linguistic matters relating to languages such as Georgian or Armenian. I don't claim wisdom to be sure of a particular answer, but I wonder how much it matters whether - if a few languages were grouped together because "the powers that be" decided that was the only way - the grouping was by family or geography. Belonging to the same family of languages is of real historical interest, when that happens, but that doesn't really help with everyday Georgian linguistic issues more than all the other relationships, geographical or of many other sorts shared with linguists around the world. Where would one suitably go at present?
The value would be that there was a place where one might look for one language, mixed with a few others of similar volume however chosen, rather than nowhere.
The point about possible strife & political warfare between neighbours is real, but surely it is for members as fellow linguists to avoid insult to one another, defuse it if it happens, and for good moderators to enforce this if necessary - as happens in the rest of Proz.

I am grateful that Proz separately recognizes jobs in language pairs including Georgian or Armenian - it would be helpful if Kudos questions (and glossaries?) could do the same.









[ This Message was edited by: giulik on 2003-04-11 23:21]


[Edited at 2004-04-06 09:32]

[Edited at 2004-04-06 09:35]


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