Two things: Suggestion\'s order and invisible agrees. (Staff:'done') Thread poster: SimplyMe (X)
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SimplyMe (X)
English to German
After a short time of trying out proz I found three issues:
1) Suggestions posted just a short time after the questions was asked have a greater chance to gather agrees than later suggestions: First come - first agreed to.
2) If a suggestion boasts with a couple of agrees, there are more to follow. Seems like many users agree with the number of agrees; not with the suggestion itself.
3) (Too) many suggestions have one primary intenti... See more After a short time of trying out proz I found three issues:
1) Suggestions posted just a short time after the questions was asked have a greater chance to gather agrees than later suggestions: First come - first agreed to.
2) If a suggestion boasts with a couple of agrees, there are more to follow. Seems like many users agree with the number of agrees; not with the suggestion itself.
3) (Too) many suggestions have one primary intention: To be the first one in the list. That in some cases leads to a poor translation quality and puts all those in the off that do some research first or are willing to deliver a suitable explanation with the suggestion. See item 1).
So my suggestions are:
1) Disable that \"quck-on-the-draw\" mentality by delaying posting of suggestions by a reasonable amount of time; 15 minutes could be a good start.
That should lead to a) better translation quality and should b) raise the chances for all those who prefer to research before posting their suggestions.
2) Post suggestions in a random order. So the winner won\'t be defined by his answer speed but by his translation\'s quality.
3) Allow ONLY the asker to see disagrees and agrees. That leads to colleagues agreeing or disagreeing to the respective translations - not to the number of agrees and disagrees.
I found the things mentioned above quite obvious.
Just give it a try - even if it involves serious programming challenges.
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2005-02-03 18:18]
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2005-02-03 18:27]
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2005-02-03 18:28] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Terry Gilman 
Germany
Local time: 19:06
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
| Leave things the way they are | Apr 13, 2003 |
You are not alone in your discoveries.
It is really not so difficult for askers to separate the wheat from the chaff.
The value of a 15-minute delay seems marginal to me. Who happens to be first is already somewhat random given delays across continents/time zones.
Sometimes askers provide too little context or have to disguise their sentences for confidentiality reasons, so the context is often not definitive enough for a 100% \"ri... See more You are not alone in your discoveries.
It is really not so difficult for askers to separate the wheat from the chaff.
The value of a 15-minute delay seems marginal to me. Who happens to be first is already somewhat random given delays across continents/time zones.
Sometimes askers provide too little context or have to disguise their sentences for confidentiality reasons, so the context is often not definitive enough for a 100% \"right\" answer anyway - even in cases where such a thing exists.
If newbies or cliques go for the \"wrong\" or \"suboptimal\" answer, so be it. They\'ll get their come-uppance from a knowledgeable client sooner or later - or will be corrected by another answerer.
Information about who agrees with whom and why/how they do it can also be enlightening for a potential outsourcer.
Making agrees/disagrees visible only to the asker would reduce the net value of the exchange and create a disincentive to contribute.
Requiring all answerers to cite one verified target language sighting of their suggestions *might* lift the quality of responses, but could also reduce the total number of ideas people chip in. Furthermore, this criterion (cite a source) is already incorporated in the grading system, and people who cite relevant sources (rather than endless lists) often do get the kudos.
Obviously, my bias is in favor of communities based on suggestions and cooperation rather than mandatory requirements, so I appreciate your suggestions, but disagree based on a couple of years of experience with ProZ (German/English).
Terry ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andrea Ali
Argentina
Local time: 14:06
Member (2003)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Not always... | Apr 13, 2003 |
Quote:
On 2003-04-13 06:17, SimplyMe wrote:
So my suggestions are:
1) Disable that \"quck-on-the-draw\" mentality by delaying posting of suggestions by a reasonable amount of time; 15 minutes could be a good start.
That should lead to a) better translation quality and should b) raise the chances for all those who prefer to research before posting their suggestions.
*** There are m
... See more Quote:
On 2003-04-13 06:17, SimplyMe wrote:
So my suggestions are:
1) Disable that \"quck-on-the-draw\" mentality by delaying posting of suggestions by a reasonable amount of time; 15 minutes could be a good start.
That should lead to a) better translation quality and should b) raise the chances for all those who prefer to research before posting their suggestions.
*** There are many examples of same answer and second or even third chosen because of explanations, references and even personal experience. (After a while, you\'ll learn to trust some colleagues\' experience in certain fields)
2) Post suggestions in a random order. So the winner won\'t be defined by his answer speed but by his translation\'s quality.
*** This would be a little unfair if two or more answers are the same. If you \"surf\" the questions you\'ll find that sometimes a few people tend to repeat an answer even hours later than the same term was proposed. I think, in this particular case, that the first answerer \"deserves\" the KudoZ.
3) Allow ONLY the asker to see disagrees and agrees. That leads to colleagues agreeing or disagreeing to the respective translations - not to the number of agrees and disagrees.
*** Definitely not. Agrees, disagrees and neutrals are essential (TO ME). I consider them a great source of information a good means of arguing as well.
I found the things mentioned above quite obvious.
Just give it a try - even if it involves serious programming challenges.
Yet, this is what I think and by no means a disagree to other opinions!!!
Welcome and good luck!!! You\'ll find ProZ a great source of knowledge, information and most important, a place to meet excellent colleagues and people!
Regards,
Andrea  ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Date the dis/agrees | Apr 14, 2003 |
I agree completely with the observation that the first answer often receives a good deal of agrees, though a later answer might be better. I am quite sure that at least some of those peers would have agreed to the later answer if they had seen it.
I don\'t think it is a good idea to hide the dis/agrees to everybody except the asker, though.
Instead my suggestions are:
Post the time of the dis/agrees! In this way it is possible to see which pe... See more I agree completely with the observation that the first answer often receives a good deal of agrees, though a later answer might be better. I am quite sure that at least some of those peers would have agreed to the later answer if they had seen it.
I don\'t think it is a good idea to hide the dis/agrees to everybody except the asker, though.
Instead my suggestions are:
Post the time of the dis/agrees! In this way it is possible to see which peers had all the answers to \"choose\" from and which had not.
Make it possible for the peer to hide a dis/agree, the same way as an answerer can hide his answer when he realizes it is no good. (But I am not sure how many peers go back to look at the question later - I don\'t do that, at least not very often.)
Eva Gustavsson
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SimplyMe (X)
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
... that many people try to see the things the way they should be.
They aren\'t.
In traffic situations drivers queue up using the lane with the longest queue.
Why? - Because they think that exactly that lane must be the proper one - there has to be something wrong with the less frequented lane; otherwise more other cars would have queued up there.
It\'s quite the same with agrees and disagrees. If there are two agrees - there are more... See more ... that many people try to see the things the way they should be.
They aren\'t.
In traffic situations drivers queue up using the lane with the longest queue.
Why? - Because they think that exactly that lane must be the proper one - there has to be something wrong with the less frequented lane; otherwise more other cars would have queued up there.
It\'s quite the same with agrees and disagrees. If there are two agrees - there are more to follow in a short time. Independent of the fact if that translation\'s right or wrong.
You\'ve all seen this: A suggestion is posted, nothing happens for hours.
But you can trigger agrees or disagrees: Just agree or disagree. If that suggestion boasts with just one agree there are more to follow in just minutes. With questions nobody rated before.
This works with disagrees as well - on a lower scale.
So what\'s the problem with invisible agrees? There is a term, there is a translation, there is your opinion.
Does a translation need the opinion of others to be correct or not?
Does the rating person need to know how other people rated that suggestion?
No, simply no.
Seeing the amount of agrees or disagrees does not help with developing a neutral valuation. It distracts from the facts.
Nothing more.
Let the asker see how many agrees or disagrees a suggestion got - and let him see who rated that suggestion. That\'s quite important. But do not let the rating persons see agrees or disagrees.
Otherwise in (too) many cases the amount of agrees will be judged - not the translation.
To be honest: I just can\'t believe that you don\'t see that.
For the random order: Just keep the time stamp with the suggestions. That way with \"copy & paste\"-suggestions everbody may see who first published that particular suggestion; so KudoZ may go the the first answerer with the correct suggestion.
But random presentation of suggestions give later suggestions the chance just to get *noticed* and rated.
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| | | | | Fully agree with Eva! | Apr 14, 2003 |
Dating the (dis)agrees and being able to hide them was already proposed some time ago, but alas! not approved (or read?) by our ProZ superiors…
| | | | | Hidden agrees, disagrees worth trying | Apr 14, 2003 |
I like the idea of hiding agrees and disagrees, for a limited time, from everyone except the (1) asker, (2) answerer, (3) (dis)agree-er(s). Sorry if I have missed this earlier.
One point to reduce expectations: the earliest answers get more agrees/disagrees not because of group think--though that may be a factor--but because more people see them. An initial answer, proposed within 10 minutes, might be seen by 50 people, while the third answer, proposed after an hour, may onl... See more I like the idea of hiding agrees and disagrees, for a limited time, from everyone except the (1) asker, (2) answerer, (3) (dis)agree-er(s). Sorry if I have missed this earlier.
One point to reduce expectations: the earliest answers get more agrees/disagrees not because of group think--though that may be a factor--but because more people see them. An initial answer, proposed within 10 minutes, might be seen by 50 people, while the third answer, proposed after an hour, may only be seen by 15. It is natural, then, for the first answer to get more feedback.
So your hidden agree suggestion--which I think is worth trying with a twist--may help a bit, but it won\'t change the fact that answering early is an advantage. (Which, I think, is as it should be.)
As for the order, we are going to go not by random, but by confidence level expressed (and time). ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Dear Martin and Eva | Apr 14, 2003 |
Your suggestions (time for the agrees and being able to edit them) have been heard.
In fact there exists a list of suggestions being to be implemented if they get enough votes among moderators and if it\'s feasible technically. I\'m not saying it\'s going to be done, nor when.
I\'m just saying: don\'t think the suggestions aren\'t read or considered. And be patient.
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| Henry - Please solve the problem with confidence level abuse before making such changes | Apr 14, 2003 |
Quote:
On 2003-04-14 10:59, Henry wrote:
As for the order, we are going to go not by random, but by confidence level expressed (and time).
Unless you also intend penalising offenders (confidence tricksters?), I really don\'t see the point in arranging answers by the answerers\' confidence level for the simple reason that there are quite a few overconfident answerers among us (some who don\'t e... See more Quote:
On 2003-04-14 10:59, Henry wrote:
As for the order, we are going to go not by random, but by confidence level expressed (and time).
Unless you also intend penalising offenders (confidence tricksters?), I really don\'t see the point in arranging answers by the answerers\' confidence level for the simple reason that there are quite a few overconfident answerers among us (some who don\'t even speak the language(s) in question but who happen to have access to a dictionary) so the \'confidence order\' would be no indication to the asker as to the relevance/accuracy of suggested translations.
FWIW
Cilian
[ This Message was edited by: Cilian on 2003-04-15 08:39] ▲ Collapse
| | | | vladex
Local time: 19:06
Polish
+ ...
| reference order | Apr 16, 2003 |
Quote:
Unless you also intend penalising offenders (confidence tricksters?), I really don\'t see the point in arranging answers by the answerers\' confidence level for the simple reason that there are quite a few overconfident answerers among us
Exactly
There are many people, who want to be first, so they would declare the highest confidence level anyway. As mentioned above, this... See more Quote:
Unless you also intend penalising offenders (confidence tricksters?), I really don\'t see the point in arranging answers by the answerers\' confidence level for the simple reason that there are quite a few overconfident answerers among us
Exactly
There are many people, who want to be first, so they would declare the highest confidence level anyway. As mentioned above, this is a game - trade-off - to be the first one vs. to be the most reliable one. In PL:ENG pairs it\'s usual to agree with the answer of faster colleague, especially when there\'s attached the same number of references (in most cases - one or two). Answerers are not perfectly anonimous, so sometimes reference \"own experience\" or \"common sense\" are better than an answer with never ending list of links based on google only.
BTW - dating and enabling to hide peers is a good idea. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Rick Henry
United States
Local time: 12:06
Italian to English
+ ...
| Maybe I'm misunderstanding... | Apr 16, 2003 |
So an agree or disagree will not be seen even once it\'s been entered in the glossary?
I\'m hoping when you say \"for a limited time\" you mean \"until it\'s entered into the glossary\". There are already enough incorrect entries in the glossary right now. I\'d want to make sure there was a disagree to an incorrect entry to steer me in the right direction.
R.
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Quote:
On 2003-04-14 10:59,
... See more So an agree or disagree will not be seen even once it\'s been entered in the glossary?
I\'m hoping when you say \"for a limited time\" you mean \"until it\'s entered into the glossary\". There are already enough incorrect entries in the glossary right now. I\'d want to make sure there was a disagree to an incorrect entry to steer me in the right direction.
R.
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Quote:
On 2003-04-14 10:59, Henry wrote:
I like the idea of hiding agrees and disagrees, for a limited time, from everyone except the (1) asker, (2) answerer, (3) (dis)agree-er(s). Sorry if I have missed this earlier.
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