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Leader rank - should a banned member be removed?
Thread poster: Susana Galilea
Susana Galilea  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:24
English to Spanish
+ ...
Jun 28, 2003

I recently had a peek at the Kudoz leaders list, and was surprised to notice the presence of a former Proz member in a high ranking position. I am referring to an agency whose behavior (i.e., non-payment) caused many of my Spanish-speaking colleagues much grief a few months back, and that was eventually banned from this site.

I was wondering if anything could be done to remove them from the leaders list, since as far as I'm concerned they are only taking up undeserved space. I, for one, will be happy to move up a notch

Thanks for your attention to this matter.

Cheers,

Susana


[Edited at 2003-06-28 17:39]


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xxxSimplyMe
English to German
Just leave it as it is, S. Galilea. Jun 28, 2003

I think that ranking is meant to show a KUDOZ expertise - not the expertise of being able to pay something.

If your request was made to help others I might fully understand it. But - you named it - it was made just to help yourself.


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Terry Thatcher Waltz, Ph.D.  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:24
Chinese to English
+ ...
I do not think her request was only for personal benefit! Jun 28, 2003

¢×believe *everyone*¡@would be glad to move up a notch through having an unscrupulous member removed from a list designed to help listees attract business.

Why should a banned member be permitted to continue enjoying an enhanced reputation through any of the benefits afforded site members in good standing??


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Roomy Naqvy  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 23:54
English to Hindi
+ ...
Please give details privately Jun 28, 2003

Susana Galilea wrote:

I recently had a peek at the Kudoz leaders list, and was surprised to notice the presence of a former Proz member in a high ranking position. I am referring to an agency whose behavior (i.e., non-payment) caused many of my Spanish-speaking colleagues much grief a few months back, and that was eventually banned from this site.

I was wondering if anything could be done to remove them from the leaders list, since as far as I'm concerned they are only taken up undeserved space. I, for one, will be happy to move up a notch

Thanks for your attention to this matter.

Cheers,

Susana


Dear Susana

Could you please give details privately at my email address? I'll ask other Moderators and see what would be the correct course of action.

Thanks a lot for your concern,

Roomy


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xxxSimplyMe
English to German
Terry: Jun 28, 2003


¢×believe *everyone*¡@would be glad to move up a notch through having an unscrupulous member removed from a list designed to help listees attract business.

You're wrong. I know for sure that not *everyone* cares about that ranking.
I don't care.


Why should a banned member be permitted to continue enjoying an enhanced reputation through any of the benefits afforded site members in good standing??

Because we don't know the reason why that member got banned. All we know is the statement of S. Galilea.

And I know for sure that members got banned for quite different reasons: E. g. for speaking up against that unprovoked US attacks.

So if you don't see me around the next days - you found another victim.


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:24
SITE FOUNDER
No politics in the forums Jun 28, 2003

SimplyMe wrote:
And I know for sure that members got banned for quite different reasons: E. g. for speaking up against that unprovoked US attacks.


That's not why you got banned, you got banned for repeatedly violating, and then refusing to accept, the "no politics" rule.

That rule is here to stay; if you can not accept it, then you are not.


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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 20:24
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
A rank deals with figures, not with merit Jun 28, 2003

Susana Galilea wrote:

I was wondering if anything could be done to remove them from the leaders list, since as far as I'm concerned they are only taken up undeserved space.
Susana


Hi Susana,

IMHO one thing is non-payment and a totally different one is KudoZ.

Undeserved space? Why? Anyone, who has answered KudoZ and got points awarded has deserved that space. Whether the awarded points were then deserved is a totally different matter: a rank tells something about figures, nothing else. And an answerer is not responsible for the awarded points, but the asker.

Best,

Giuliana


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 20:24
English to German
+ ...
Agency was banned for non-payment Jun 28, 2003

SimplyMe wrote:
Because we don't know the reason why that member got banned. All we know is the statement of S. Galilea.

Wrong. The agency in question was banned for repeated non-payment (see this thread among others). Sometimes it helps to check the facts before commenting.

Ralf


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EdithK  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 20:24
Member
Gaelic to German
+ ...
Politics Jun 28, 2003

Hi Jörn, why can't you leave politics aside? There is an Irish saying: Never speak about religion and politics, and you won't lose your friends. Though we are colleagues, we come from all walks of life, and we do not really know what might be offensive.

Let's talk about the weather, just lived through a thunderstorm, and it's again sunny and humid.


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Susana Galilea  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:24
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Giuliana, I see your point but... Jun 28, 2003

Giuliana Buscaglione wrote:
Undeserved space? Why? Anyone, who has answered KudoZ and got points awarded has deserved that space. Whether the awarded points were then deserved is a totally different matter: a rank tells something about figures, nothing else. And an answerer is not responsible for the awarded points, but the asker.


My comment had to do with the fact that, if someone is banned from the site due to unscrupulous behavior towards their peers, shouldn't they be banned from all sections altogether?

Jörn, I guess my Iberian sense of humour got me in trouble once more. Believe me, the day I need to scheme around in order to move up the leaders list, that will be the day I am in deep trouble!

I am not the kind to go around making unsubstantiated claims, and the case of this agency was the subject of much debate, and much grief for some, a few months back. I was actually trying to make the point that Terry ended up stating much more clearly.

Also, thanks Ralf for setting the record straight.

Cheers,

Susana


[Edited at 2003-06-28 23:31]


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Roomy Naqvy  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 23:54
English to Hindi
+ ...
I disagree Giuliana Jun 28, 2003

Giuliana Buscaglione wrote:

Susana Galilea wrote:

I was wondering if anything could be done to remove them from the leaders list, since as far as I'm concerned they are only taken up undeserved space.
Susana


Hi Susana,

IMHO one thing is non-payment and a totally different one is KudoZ.

Undeserved space? Why? Anyone, who has answered KudoZ and got points awarded has deserved that space. Whether the awarded points were then deserved is a totally different matter: a rank tells something about figures, nothing else. And an answerer is not responsible for the awarded points, but the asker.

Best,

Giuliana


I'll tell you why I disagree. Once a member is *banned* for a particular reason then there is no reason why that member should appear elsewhere. Either way, the member's profile is not there; so, any one who clicks on that profile link cannot access the profile. So, it does not really establish much. Also, we know that members are banned in exceptional circumstances and so, if they are banned, then, I see no point in keeping their *memories* alive.

[Edited at 2003-06-28 17:40]


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Terry Thatcher Waltz, Ph.D.  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:24
Chinese to English
+ ...
Just so Jun 29, 2003

Members *in good standing* should be able to avail themselves of the benefits of membership. I see no reason why members -- or ex-members -- who are not in good standing should enjoy any benefit, including enhancement to his or her reputation, that might accrue from the site.

I do not think people are so crazy for KudoZ points that they would try to remove this listing simply to move up. That is childish. However, I likewise see no reason why a member in the situation described should obtain "higher billing", effectively speaking, even in one area, and perhaps as a result take jobs from others who are in good standing. Granted points are not the sole reason most people would decide to choose a translator over any other one; but there are laypeople who are less informed and who see KudoZ as much more than what insiders might think they are.


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Susana Galilea  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:24
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
it seems to me like a matter of principle Jun 29, 2003

Terry L. Thatcher, Ph.D. wrote:

Members *in good standing* should be able to avail themselves of the benefits of membership. I see no reason why members -- or ex-members -- who are not in good standing should enjoy any benefit, including enhancement to his or her reputation, that might accrue from the site.

I do not think people are so crazy for KudoZ points that they would try to remove this listing simply to move up. That is childish. However, I likewise see no reason why a member in the situation described should obtain "higher billing", effectively speaking, even in one area, and perhaps as a result take jobs from others who are in good standing. Granted points are not the sole reason most people would decide to choose a translator over any other one; but there are laypeople who are less informed and who see KudoZ as much more than what insiders might think they are.


Actually, my original query had more to do with this particularly notorious former member, and not so much with former members in general. It seems a matter of principle, if nothing else, to erase the presence of someone who was banned from using this site for taking advantage of the trust their colleagues had in them as a fellow Proz member.

As I see it, the only place they should remain is on the Blue Board, which gives a good measure of their terrible reputation.

[Edited at 2003-06-29 03:43]


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xxxSimplyMe
English to German
No, Henry. Jun 29, 2003

SimplyMe wrote:
And I know for sure that members got banned for quite different reasons: E. g. for speaking up against that unprovoked US attacks.



That's not why you got banned, you got banned for repeatedly violating, and then refusing to accept, the "no politics" rule.

That rule is here to stay; if you can not accept it, then you are not.


I got banned because I did not remove that profile photo that showed a little child threatened by a petrol pump nozzle. I kept your eMails dealing with that matter.
Do you remember ?

Here's my suggestion:
Just tell me where I did not tell the truth regarding those US attacks and I will apologize.

Freedom is the right to speak freely.
Just tell me.


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:24
SITE FOUNDER
Free speech, yes, but no politics *here* (in the translation workplace) Jun 29, 2003

SimplyMe wrote:
I got banned because I did not remove that profile photo that showed a little child threatened by a petrol pump nozzle. I kept your eMails dealing with that matter.
Do you remember ?


Wrong. Actually, no one has been banned just for breaking the "no politics" rule. You (and one other member) were banned for breaking and then *refusing to accept* the rule, a rule you legally accepted when you registered (and in your case, re-registered). You also legally accepted that rule each time you posted in the forums.

In your case, I was also not impressed by your pledge to re-join, this time with the intention of realizing only personal gain (do you remember?), rather than participating in balanced and mutually beneficial interaction.

Here's my suggestion:
Just tell me where I did not tell the truth regarding those US attacks and I will apologize.

Freedom is the right to speak freely.
Just tell me.


Well, we agree on one thing; you have a human right to free speech. But here is the point that everyone but you (and one other) has understood: ProZ.com is not a nation, but a translation workplace. Here, we consider the dicussion of politics, and for that matter, sex, religion, farm implements and fly fishing, to be beyond our scope. You have a right to discuss all of these things to your heart's content--but not here! There are other, appropriate venues for activism, like the office of your local representative. (There, you might actually make a difference to someone other than yourself.)

So, you have once again sidetracked a forum thread with your political remarks. You could have resolved this with me personally via our offsite emails, which would not have inconvenienced the poster or readers of this thread. But instead you continue to make a public display of the Mohs value of your head.

I am removing your profile. To be clear, this is the line that earned you the removal:

> No politics, Joern, ok?
No, it is NOT ok.


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