Humble, sensible wishes for this new 2004 (part 1) [Or: on translation, ethics, quality, results] Thread poster: Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc (X)
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Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc (X) 
English to Spanish
First Unofficial Law of being a translator:
(A-) if you are a translator don't accept jobs you're not sufficiently prepared for, or, in other words, don't accept jobs that don't fall within your expertise areas ... let alone bid for them
I'm seeing once and again translators in this site taking jobs and then, on the very same day, or within hours, starting to fire a whole batch of KudoZ questions.
Now, the implications of this kind of attitude, beyond what in m... See more First Unofficial Law of being a translator:
(A-) if you are a translator don't accept jobs you're not sufficiently prepared for, or, in other words, don't accept jobs that don't fall within your expertise areas ... let alone bid for them
I'm seeing once and again translators in this site taking jobs and then, on the very same day, or within hours, starting to fire a whole batch of KudoZ questions.
Now, the implications of this kind of attitude, beyond what in my opinion is a lack of professional ethics (in a site that states it is a site for professionals), are clearly headed in the direction of lousy quality.
If someone bids for a job he/she's unprepared for, and immediately starts asking questions like mad, the result of the translation work is dependent on what other people tell him/her-willing to help or willing to gain the, again in my opinion, professionally degrading KudoZ points, therefore, who knows what answers are right and which are wrong-.
(B-) The other side of the same coin: agencies, take the time to look for someone adequate for your job. There's a Search feature available in this site. You, and your customer, will obviously get better results if you make the -reasonable- effort to look at the profiles of translators until you find the candidate(s) whose profiles match the job requirements.
If you only look at the speed and the costs, you're prone to end up with situations like this one being described here.
Personally, I've never made a single KudoZ question, and in fact I would not hire people who use that feature.
Indeed, I'd be very happy if both KudoZ and bidding had never been introduced in this site, which seemed far more promising years ago. If I remember well, when it was created it didn't include any KudoZ points system, nor was there this bidding system as it presently is.
...Yes, in my humble opinion, bidding, specially as it's currently set up, is also an 'all-parties-lose' system.
P.S.: Before you start having a go at me, let me explain that I've been in this business for nine years. I've always had these opinions. I've never accepted, let alone bid for, any job for which I felt I was unprepared. (Yes, I did bid sometimes, but I think it has got out of hand).
Any translation association, organization, body, would support this 'first law' as I've named it. It's also backed by elementary common sense.
So it's so obvious that it's striking so many 'professionals' fail to follow it.
As to such 'professionals' (both translators and agencies), I can only feel dis-respect. They do a dis-service to the end customer and the end users alike. As well as to the profession.
[Edited at 2004-01-04 23:59] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | You misunderstand KudoZ and 'bidding' | Jan 5, 2004 |
I do not want people to be mislead by your post, so I'll clarify:
What you call "bidding" could also be called "offering to do a job at a certain price." Since those offering to do jobs can not see each others' pricing, there is no incentive to quote outside your own range (in fact, if you read the faqs, the incentive is the opposite--to hold your own range.)
As for asking KudoZ, no resource yet published is fully complete. Professionals who double check their work wit... See more I do not want people to be mislead by your post, so I'll clarify:
What you call "bidding" could also be called "offering to do a job at a certain price." Since those offering to do jobs can not see each others' pricing, there is no incentive to quote outside your own range (in fact, if you read the faqs, the incentive is the opposite--to hold your own range.)
As for asking KudoZ, no resource yet published is fully complete. Professionals who double check their work with second opinions should not be denigrated. None of us is an island. ▲ Collapse
| | | | NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 18:20
Member (2002)
French to English
+ ...
MODERATOR
If you detest KudoZ, how do you know about the questions being asked there?
And if you don't like bidding, why would you bid?
Nine years in the profession - you shouldn't feel threatened by those beneath your standards. Your clients wouldn't even look at them!;-)
Nancy
| | | | | I'm a proud asker | Jan 5, 2004 |
Hi Daniel
I find your post quite insulting for those who ask.
Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc wrote:
Personally, I've never made a single KudoZ question, and in fact I would not hire people who use that feature.
I don't hesitate to ask for our colleague's help.
Those who know more than me, help me and I help those who know less than me.
Those who don't have a single doubt about a term in a translation for which they are qualified are very lucky. Or maybe unconscious.
There are cases of abuse, from people who translate into a language to which they shouldn't, or from people who are not qualified for the job, but I'm sure that these are very few cases in relation to the number of questions asked and it's not a reason to "dis-respect" those who want to be sure of giving the best translation and don't hesitate to ask for professional advice.
Claudia
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Paul Roige (X)
Spain
Local time: 00:20
English to Spanish
+ ...
| I fully accept your opinions | Jan 5, 2004 |
Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc wrote:
Personally, I've never made a single KudoZ question, and in fact I would not hire people who use that feature.
[Edited at 2004-01-04 23:59]
Please accept mine for the above — if you care, that is: I am glad not to work for you until you loosen it up a bit, if ever. So we are both happy.
Please note: No offence. This does not undermine in the least my personal and professional respect for you. Just two worlds apart.
Best regards and have a great 2004
Paul
| | | | Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc (X)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER
Henry wrote:
I do not want people to be mislead by your post, so I'll clarify:
I'm not trying to mislead anyone, Henry. You know it.
What you call "bidding" could also be called "offering to do a job at a certain price." Since those offering to do jobs can not see each others' pricing, there is no incentive to quote outside your own range (in fact, if you read the faqs, the incentive is the opposite--to hold your own range.)
Read what I wrote, Henry. I said somethingf about translators bidding for a job, agencies accepting those bids, and the next hour a whole batch of KudoZ questions related to the job the translator bid for (why did he/she bid if he/she clearly has no expertise in the area?).
Also, you could try and perfect the bidding system, introducing requirements for the agencies (or individuales offering the job) to specify. Example: field (or subject) in direct relation to qualifications (or the other way round).
And be honest Henry, in general, agencies are posting jobs looking for the lowest price, full stop. The resulting translations have double chance to be disastrous.
As for asking KudoZ, no resource yet published is fully complete.
Hm.
- A good translator should have his/her own resources.
- Making questions may be all right under certain circumstances. Pointing the answers inevitably leads to 'fights for the points', as people like to be up on the resulting scale to receive more job proposals; then many of them can bid on jobs without being prepared for them, so on, and the cycle repeats itself.
What does and end user want (presumably the end customer, the translator's customer this is)?
A good translation. As if it had never been written in anything but his/her language (not the original language).
Henry, it's your site and you'll never admit it, but both systems are intertwined and, at present, I think it's obvious they jeopardize the final result, be it a piece of paper, be it the most complex software.
You introduced these systems, and I'm still here, supporting the site with my platinum membership.
Professionals who double check their work with second opinions should not be denigrated.
I agree. I never talked about them...
None of us is an island.
Yes, and you and I know I wrote this same thought after that incident that occurred some time ago.
I like part of the things ProZ has to offer, such as this chance to debate in public.
I'm only saying... what I wrote at the beggining of this thread.
Regards
Happy New 2004
[Edited at 2004-01-05 01:05]
| | | | Juan Jacob
Mexico
Local time: 16:20
French to Spanish
+ ...
| Mi opinión, en español. | Jan 5, 2004 |
Daniel dice:
---------------------------------------------
If you are a translator don't accept jobs you're not sufficiently prepared for, or, in other words, don't accept jobs that don't fall within your expertise areas ... let alone bid for them
I'm seeing once and again translators in this site taking jobs and then, on the very same day, or within hours, starting to fire a whole batch of KudoZ questions.
---------------------------------------------
... See more Daniel dice:
---------------------------------------------
If you are a translator don't accept jobs you're not sufficiently prepared for, or, in other words, don't accept jobs that don't fall within your expertise areas ... let alone bid for them
I'm seeing once and again translators in this site taking jobs and then, on the very same day, or within hours, starting to fire a whole batch of KudoZ questions.
---------------------------------------------
En un primer tiempo, debo disentir con Daniel: nada nos prueba que aquellos que nos inundan con preguntas son los mismos que han aceptado trabajos de traducción obtenidos por medio del mismo ProZ.
Al menos es lo que nos quieres decir, y esa es una aseveración que habría que comprobar.
Por otro lado, debo estar absolutamente de acuerdo con él en cuanto a la evidente falta de profesionalismo de muchos de los preguntones, por la siguiente y sencilla razón: muchísimas de las preguntas planteadas -y finalmente seleccionadas- en este sitio tienen una fácil respuesta si se toma uno el tiempo suficiente de buscar mínimamanente en Internet, herramienta utilísima si las hay. Así es: vean simplemente las respuestas... no podría precisar el porcentaje, pero muchas simplemente son enlaces en Internet en los que se halla la respuesta (y no lo digo en demérito de quien se ha tomado la molestia de buscar, mucho ojo).
En lo personal, nunca respondo con un enlace, pero lo hice hace dos días a propósito del color del vidrio de un edificio en específico que me intrigó.
Copié y pegué en un buscador el nombre de dicho edificio, y, ¡maravilla, ahí estaban todas las fotos posibles del mentado edificio, a color, por supuesto! (El vidrio era verde, por cierto).
Yo no sería tan tajante como Daniel, pero sí plantearía lo siguiente: ¿es ProZ únicamente para traductores altamente calificados con alguna duda muy específica -como regionalismos, expresiones populares, términos técnicos o legales muy complicados y específicos, o simplemente afectados de amnesia o consancio- o es un espacio abierto a los no tan profesionales?
(ProZ contestará que es para lo segundo, lo presiento).
En lo personal, a veces sí me canso de ver tanta nimiedad y evidente pereza por parte de algunos, o muchos, colegas. Sin embargo, debo confesar también que, desde que descubrí este sitio, no dejo de consultarlo todos los días, y, a veces, de participar. Es divertido, habla de lo que me gusta, aprendo y, a veces, comunico lo poco o mucho que sé. (Confieso también que, al principio, me "enganché" en aquello de la carrera por los KudoZ... error de juventud prontamente superado... valgo lo que soy, y ciertamente jamás alcanzaré a Gilles Meunier. Me encanta recibir un "Congratulations, your answer, etc..!", pero hasta ahí).
Preciso también que he "dibeado" creo que dos veces y que hasta la fecha no he conseguido absolutamente ningún trabajo gracias a ProZ... así que útil, lo que se dice útil, ProZ no lo ha sido mucho para mí, más que subjetivamente por lo antes expuesto y sí por algunas respuestas que me han sacado de apuro.
Un saludo a todos.
Juan Jacob.
Saludos. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc (X)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER | in fact, I am not threatened | Jan 5, 2004 |
NancyLynn wrote:
If you detest KudoZ, how do you know about the questions being asked there?
Hello NacyLynn
Well, first of all, I did not say I detest anything or anybody.
In answer to your question, I did answer some KudoZ questions, way back.
And if you don't like bidding, why would you bid?
You're right! Why should I bid?
Nine years in the profession - you shouldn't feel threatened by those beneath your standards.
No, I'm not threatened. Thank you.
Your clients wouldn't even look at them!;-)
Nancy
I don't know...
Do you know?
What are you stating, more exactly?
Regards
Happy 2004
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Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc (X)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER | it's in your right to feel or not to feel 'insulted' | Jan 5, 2004 |
Claudia Iglesias wrote:
Hi Daniel
I find your post quite insulting for those who ask.
Hello Claudia
Well, I'm sorry if you feel insulted. I think you shouldn't...
Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc wrote:
Personally, I've never made a single KudoZ question, and in fact I would not hire people who use that feature. I don't hesitate to ask for our colleague's help. Those who know more than me, help me and I help those who know less than me.
That's all up to you, Claudia.
Those who don't have a single doubt about a term in a translation for which they are qualified are very lucky. Or maybe unconscious.
1) Who says translators that don't ask questions here, in Proz, don't ask questions?
2) Well, are you subtly implying that I'm unconscious?
There are cases of abuse, from people who translate into a language to which they shouldn't, or from people who are not qualified for the job, but I'm sure that these are very few cases in relation to the number of questions asked and it's not a reason to "dis-respect" those who want to be sure of giving the best translation and don't hesitate to ask for professional advice.
a) You're sure there are very few cases. I'm sure they're a too many cases
b) I 'dis-respect' people who don't act with a minimum of ethics, yes. Those described in the problem I outlined at the top of this thread. Both translators and agencies
Claudia
Happy 2004, Claudia
| | | | | Your posting has left me a bit confused | Jan 5, 2004 |
Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc wrote:
Personally, I've never made a single KudoZ question, and in fact I would not hire people who use that feature.
Indeed, I'd be very happy if both KudoZ and bidding had never been introduced in this site, which seemed far more promising years ago. If I remember well, when it was created it didn't include any KudoZ points system, nor was there this bidding system as it presently is.
[Edited at 2004-01-04 23:59]
Hi!
Your posting has left me a bit confused, are you trying to say that translators that post questions on Proz are less qualified, to undertake a given translation, then those that do not use the system?
So, following your philosophy a translator should never ask a colleague questions related to a translation that he or she might be undertaking at that moment.
Well, my personal experience regarding the asking and answering of questions on proz has been very rewarding in all aspects. I always encourage my colleagues to use it.
Anyway,such is life, some like certain things others don´t.
Have a happy 2004!
MLD
| | | | Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc (X)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER | Paul, you just loosen, if you may | Jan 5, 2004 |
[quote]Paul Roigé wrote:
Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc wrote:
Personally, I've never made a single KudoZ question, and in fact I would not hire people who use that feature.
[Edited at 2004-01-04 23:59]
Please accept mine for the above — if you care, that is: I am glad not to work for you until you loosen it up a bit, if ever.
What do you mean, Paul, 'if ever'?
Are you insulting me? Well thanks but I don't need it.
Are you concerned about quality?
I don't see any opinion in your reply...
???
So we are both happy.
Please note: No offence. This does not undermine in the least my personal and professional respect for you. Just two worlds apart.
Well, if you could please rephrase or simply give me an opinion...
Right now, yes, all I see here is you have indulged in an offence towards me.
Best regards and have a great 2004 Paul
Well, thank you! Very kind indeed...
Best Regards
Happy 2004
| | | | | OK, points made - closing thread | Jan 5, 2004 |
Daniel has made his point and others have replied. It will remain in the archive, but I am going to lock it before it gets more personal.
Do not carry this over into another thread. Thanks.
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