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Misleading KudoZ wording on main page... can we change that?
Thread poster: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:23
Member (2004)
English to Italian
Apr 8, 2004

Hi to all,

What do you think of the following:

The KudoZ network provides a convenient way for translators and others to assist each other with **translations or explanations of terms and phrases**.

What really concerns me is the last word: "phrases". Are we encouraging people to post questions on whole phrases? "Translations or explanations of terms **and** phrases". Has the KudoZ policy been changed? I thought it was just a terminology help, nothing to do with whole sentences. It's already bad enough with people asking for free proofreading and translation of whole paragraphs. Isn't this just the final approval, from the man himself? Yes, now you can have whole phrases translated, for free... Please, please, please, we are professionals who would like to be paid for the services we offer. Please, please, please, don't encourage the freebie culture. Please, please, please, reword the sentence! Thanks!

Regards,

Giovanni



[Edited at 2004-04-08 06:39]


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Roberta Anderson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 19:23
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
phrases vs sentences Apr 8, 2004

Hi, Giovanni.
I don't think it's misleading, as there's a difference between "phrases" and "sentences" and one of the kudoz rules is:
1.3 - Texts longer than 10 words should not be posted as KudoZ questions
So I think the wording is ok as it is...

Roberta


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:23
Member (2004)
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER
Difference? Apr 8, 2004

Hi Roberta,

and what's the difference? I wasn't aware of the 10 word limit in the FAQ, which I find even more appalling, to be honest. A "term" can be 3 or 4 words long, but encouraging people to post a maximum of 10 words means, in my opinion, allowing them to ask for whole sentences to be translated. I think it's a grey area in need of clarification. I believe the wording should be:
"The KudoZ network provides a convenient way for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms. Translation or proofreading of whole sentences is not allowed".

Ciao,

G

[Edited at 2004-04-08 06:59]


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Michele Johnson  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 19:23
German to English
+ ...
I think it's OK how it is. Apr 8, 2004

Giovanni, I understand your concern and frustration about entire paragraphs being posted. But sometimes it's necessary to post more than one word, for example:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/682913

I personally think it is addressed well enough in the Kudoz rules:
http://www.proz.com/kudozrules


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Roberta Anderson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 19:23
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
difference Apr 8, 2004

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

and what's the difference?


phrase: a group of words forming a conceptual unit, but not a sentence

sentence: a set of words complete in itself as the expression of a thought, containing or implying a subject and predicate [...]

Asking for help with a single word or a multi-word phrase (or term, as you say) helps a translator understanding the meaning and therefore translate a whole sentence.
A 10 words phrase is rather long and expect will seldom be seen in the kudoz area, but Michele's example comes quite close to it.

10 words strung together can easily make up a sentence or paragraph, or even a whole document (Dear x, I will meet you tomorrow as agreed. Regards,) but then they are no longer a phrase, so not allowed as kudoz questions. On the other hand, something like "overshooting register lay mispositioning" (does this count as 4 or 6 words?) is a phrase or term, and so legitimate in spite of its length.

ciao,
Roberta


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:23
SITE FOUNDER
No change in policy Apr 8, 2004

Hi Giovanni,

I understand your concern. I added "and phrases" only in a second draft; the first looked a bit silly to me standing over a list of phrases that came up at one point during the day. I will think about how to rewrite the brief explanation based on your and others' suggestions.


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 15:23
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
What about 'short expressions'? Apr 8, 2004

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
...
I think it's a grey area in need of clarification. I believe the wording should be:
"The KudoZ network provides a convenient way for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms. Translation or proofreading of whole sentences is not allowed".



Giovanni,
what do you think about the following formulation:

"The KudoZ network provides a convenient way for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short expressions."

Perhaps it would solve the ambiguity and still allow for posting idiomatic expressions and groups of words that would not make sense if isolated.


Gianfranco


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:23
Member (2004)
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER
short expressions... Apr 8, 2004

[quote]Gianfranco Manca wrote:



"The KudoZ network provides a convenient way for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short expressions."

Perhaps it would solve the ambiguity and still allow for posting idiomatic expressions and groups of words that would not make sense if isolated.


Gianfranco


I think "short expressions" would be much better. I believe that the use of "phrase", despite the distinction between phrase and sentence well highlighted by Roberta (thanks!), is open to ambiguity and can be misleading. For example, in Italian, phrase and sentence can be both translated as "frase", although, as Roberta pointed out, phrase is a conceptual unit and a sentence has a subject, a verb and a object (usually). In Italian, we make a distinction between a "frase con senso incompiuto" (phrase) and a "frase con senso compiuto" (sentence). I know it's not the English language fault, but I believe that just using "phrase" can be seriuosly misleading, at least in Italian. I wonder if this applies to other languages as well.

Giovanni

[Edited at 2004-04-08 08:03]


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Gilda Manara  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 19:23
German to Italian
+ ...
my two pence Apr 8, 2004

What about something like "help in translating a single term and/or understanding the meaning of a phrase, but not translating finite sentences"?

I agree with Giovanni that for Italian readers phrase and sentence might be misleading, but assuming we are professional translators, we should also be aware of false friends in other languages...

from Webster:

Definitions: Phrase
Phrase
Noun
1. An expression forming a grammatical constituent of a sentence but not containing a finite verb.

2. A short musical passage two to four measures long.

3. An expression whose meanings cannot be inferred from the meanings of the words that make it up.



Specialty Definition: Phrase
(From Wikipedia, the free Encyclopedia)

Informally, a phrase is a group of words in a sentence that functions somewhat like as single word.



Gilda


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 19:23
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
Helping people is a voluntary matter Apr 8, 2004

Giovanni says
Please, please, please, we are professionals who would like to be paid for the services we offer. Please, please, please, don't encourage the freebie culture.

Please, please, please remember that:

No one - absolutely no one is compelled to answer a KudoZ question

Mats


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:23
Member (2004)
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks Gilda and a quick reply to Mats... Apr 8, 2004

Thanks Gilda (and Roberta) for reminding me the difference between sentence and phrase. No excuse for not remembering it....

Mats:
we all know that nobody has to answer KudoZ questions, but you are well aware that it's the site system of visibility that "force" people to do just that. Why? Visibility equals more opportunity of landing jobs, because KudoZ are a discriminating factor on the site. The more KudoZ points you have, the more visible you become, the more jobs you are likely to get (both in terms of members ranking during a search and of positioning in terms of bids). It's as simple as that....
If no points were assigned for KudoZ and KudoZ stopped being a discriminatory factor, you can bet that very few poeple would answer questions.

Giovanni

[Edited at 2004-04-08 10:41]


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Pamela Brizzola  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 19:23
Member (2004)
English to Italian
+ ...
Why being so harsly against Kudoz? Apr 8, 2004

Hi Giovanni
I honestly don't understand why you are so against Kudoz points.
I think they are a wonderful way to
1. help colleagues
2. get help from colleagues
3. get some visibility from your effort

The only con I find is that, if you want to get more points, you have to spend your time looking for solutions, but it is something you build up gradually with time, and you know considering your Kudoz level.


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Gilda Manara  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 19:23
German to Italian
+ ...
you were not the only one! Apr 8, 2004

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

Thanks Gilda (and Roberta) for reminding me the difference between sentence and phrase. No excuse for not remembering it....


To be honest, I also had to look on the dictionary for finding it...))

Gilda


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xxxmishima
Local time: 03:23
Italian to Japanese
+ ...
Please, please, please, be more clear. Apr 8, 2004

Giovanni says
Please, please, please, we are professionals who would like to be paid for the services we offer. Please, please, please, don\'t encourage the freebie culture.

Mats Wiman wrote:

Please, please, please remember that:

No one - absolutely no one is compelled to answer a KudoZ question

Mats


If one is not compelled to answer KudoZ questions and, on top of it, he is a paying member, why should he be penalized (worse ranking)? No one ever said or wrote clearly in this site that in order to get a fair directory positioning it is necessary to answer KudoZs as much as possible.

Why not to restrict the KudoZ posting to paying members only and free the member directory positioning concept from the Kudoz system? Wouldn\'t this site become a true venue for professionals only and, as a result, attract more professional translators?

Mishima


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giogi
Local time: 18:23
Do you mean that Apr 8, 2004

mishima wrote:


Why not to restrict the KudoZ posting to paying members only and free the member directory positioning concept from the Kudoz system? Wouldn't this site become a true venue for professionals only and, as a result, attract more professional translators?

Mishima

professionalism comes from being a paying member?????????????
Don't be hopping mad..I'm joking just to tell you that this could be a very unpopular suggestion!
Anyway I utterly agree on the fact that nobody is forced to answer.
Giovanna


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