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The disagree option is not for the answerers (T)
Thread poster: Sabry Hameed

Sabry Hameed  Identity Verified
Egypt
Local time: 13:32
Member (2004)
English to Arabic
+ ...
May 2, 2004

Dear All,
I found that there are some answerers who use the disagree option to disagree with another answerer which means to weaken its chances of grading in this question. I think that to post another answer means that I'm either neutral or disagree with the answerer and there is no need to disagree with him. In the last few weeks, I notices that there are somekind of a clash and many cases of mutual "disagrees" which I feel not proper to appear on the site. So, what I suggest is to prevent the one who answers from disagreeing with another answerer. Let others decide who is right or what is the most appropriate answer.

Sabry Gameel

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2005-02-02 16:33]


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 14:32
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
True May 2, 2004

I call this a "disagree war". Yes, disagrees are sometimes used:
1) to undermine others' answers in favour of your own;
2) to decrease the chances of the person whom you do not like to win the answer.

Both approaches are quite effective when it comes to auto-grading questions by robot (which is very probable, especially when the akser is not a registered proZ member).

sabrygameel wrote:
So, what I suggest is to prevent the one who answers from disagreeing with another answerer. Let others decide who is right or what is the most appropriate answer.


I've thought about it, too. The problem is that any answerer may put his/her disagree first, and only after this give their own answer.

[Edited at 2004-05-02 17:06]


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xxxIanW
Local time: 13:32
German to English
+ ...
I disagree ... May 2, 2004

The main purpose of the disagree option is to guide the asker in the "right" direction. If a person who has also suggested a question - and may have particular insight - is not allowed to comment on others' answers, then the asker might end up choosing an incorrect answer.

I agree that overly aggressive behaviour and tit-for-tat disagreeing is a problem which needs to be addressed (and has been already in many cases), but this is not the way to solve it. After all, you don't get rid of all cars just because a small number of people abuse the rules of the road.


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Sabry Hameed  Identity Verified
Egypt
Local time: 13:32
Member (2004)
English to Arabic
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
He may indicate his opinion in his answer May 2, 2004

Ian Winick wrote:

The main purpose of the disagree option is to guide the asker in the "right" direction. If a person who has also suggested a question - and may have particular insight - is not allowed to comment on others' answers, then the asker might end up choosing an incorrect answer.

I agree that overly aggressive behaviour and tit-for-tat disagreeing is a problem which needs to be addressed (and has been already in many cases), but this is not the way to solve it. After all, you don't get rid of all cars just because a small number of people abuse the rules of the road.


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 13:32
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...

MODERATOR
Do not assume evil intention May 2, 2004

Very often you might firmly believe that you have the right answer and the basis of that answer is that you disagree with the answer offered by someone else.

Real linguists are not after easy gains, they are there to develop, learn and help.

Mats


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Sol  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:32
Spanish to English
+ ...
I disagree May 2, 2004

When we suggest an answer we are not necesarily saying that the rest of the answers are wrong, or even than we have the best answer. Sometimes an answer is given because it is another possibility, or another way of saying the same thing. Of course, it's wrong to disagree just to get points; my thought is that you should only disagree if you are absolutely certain the translation does not mean the same as the original, or, in the case of a grammar question only, that it is grammatically incorrect.

I once received a disagree with the comment "just because I feel like it", from someone I had disagreed with, giving a very good explanation. That is totally unprofessional and I was glad to see the offender corrected it promptly by deleting the comment.

Agrees and Disagrees should NEVER be about "I like YOU" or "I dislike YOU", they should be about "Correct translation" and "Incorrect translation". In case of doubt and to add comments without judging the answer, there is Neutral. I suggested in another thread that maybe we should have more options than those three, so they would be harder to use as a weapon.

Happy translating,
Sol


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xxxtazdog
Spain
Local time: 13:32
Spanish to English
+ ...
I disagree, too May 3, 2004

I was recently berated for disagreeing with another answer to a question that I'd answered myself. I rarely disagree with another answer when I've provided my own--unless that other answer is flat-out wrong (i.e., it isn't an accurate translation of the term in the question). In that case, the purpose of my disagree is to let the asker know that this is one option that shouldn't be chosen because it's totally unacceptable, not just "another possibility," as Sol said. In this particular case where I was taken to task for my disagree, the incorrect answer already had 2 agrees, so I felt it was particularly important to put my comment (including the explanation of why the answer was incorrect) right where it would be most visible, rather than "bury" it in the text of my answer.

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Mario Marcolin  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 13:32
Member (2003)
English to Swedish
+ ...
Comments are necessary May 3, 2004

to guide the asker. Me too, I would only disagree if I'm convinced that an anwer is 100% unacceptable.
"Neutral" is always a good option when you want to make a contribution without taking sides.

On the other hand, I often agree with one answer, suggesting alternatives within that comment or agree *and* post one answer myself, when I feel the asker needs more options to choose from.

Without the checks and balances of the comment options I feel the KudoZ system would rapidly fall apart..


mario

[Edited at 2004-05-03 07:16]

[Edited at 2004-05-03 07:16]


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R Farhat  Identity Verified
Lebanon
Local time: 14:32
Member (2004)
English to Arabic
+ ...
to agree or not to agree, that is the question May 3, 2004

Yes, some "disagree" just happen to go that way! However, the "disagree" do not influence much the asker's decision because he/she will pick the answer more "relevant" to his/her piece of translation. A correct and accurate answer might not fit the term in a certain context even if all "agreed" to it.
But, do not take it personal because many are not an "intentional" disagree


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Sol  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:32
Spanish to English
+ ...
not an "intentional" disagree? May 3, 2004

kalila wrote:
But, do not take it personal because many are not an "intentional" disagree


Kalika, would you care to elaborate? How can a disagree be anything but intentional? You can't just push the wrong button, you need to provide a comment. And even if you do select Disagree by mistake, you can always change or delete your comment.

But about your main point, a Disagree among a bunch of Agrees does make a difference, it makes the Asker look twice and reconsider. The Agrees might be, as often happens, all from people who are native to the target language and didn't fully understand the meaning of the original, or from people who are not very familiar with the field in question.


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Tina Vonhof  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 05:32
Member (2006)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Well said! May 3, 2004

Ian Winick wrote:

The main purpose of the disagree option is to guide the asker in the "right" direction. If a person who has also suggested a question - and may have particular insight - is not allowed to comment on others' answers, then the asker might end up choosing an incorrect answer.

I agree that overly aggressive behaviour and tit-for-tat disagreeing is a problem which needs to be addressed (and has been already in many cases), but this is not the way to solve it. After all, you don't get rid of all cars just because a small number of people abuse the rules of the road.


I agree with every word - well said!


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R Farhat  Identity Verified
Lebanon
Local time: 14:32
Member (2004)
English to Arabic
+ ...
Agree May 3, 2004

Sol wrote:
Kalika, would you care to elaborate?


Dear Sol, of course I agree with all of you. I understand what Sabry is referring to (a certain point) that I also noticed. My reaction to such "disagrees" (after experience) is much of care less about. Yes, we do lose probable kudoz points and I was saying that some answerers opt to disagree as a matter of 'character' rather than 'intentional'. Bringing up the subject is good.


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Sol  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:32
Spanish to English
+ ...
Kalila, with an L May 3, 2004

I just noticed I mispelled your name. My most sincere appologies!

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R Farhat  Identity Verified
Lebanon
Local time: 14:32
Member (2004)
English to Arabic
+ ...
Agree/Disagree with Explanation May 4, 2004

Sol wrote:

I just noticed I mispelled your name. My most sincere appologies!

No problem, Sol.
Yes, an agree and disagree should better both have some comment: a close alternative (agree) and/or an explanation (disagree).
A totally different answer can be posted as a new answer. This way, the first answerer to suggest a term will not lose points -backed by 'agree' alternatives.


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Hacene  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:32
Member (2005)
English to French
+ ...
I agree entirely with you May 16, 2004

When I first started on Proz, I was contacted by a peer and was informed of an unwritten rule: When you submit an answer, do not disagree with others as 1) your proposal is mainly because you disagree with the other answers 2) It can be perceived as an attempt to influence the vote of the asker.
Ever since, I put only neutral comments with a much better result and without upsetting my peers.
Unfortunately, some people disregard this rule of curtesy and puts disagree for no over purpose than to "get points" and in some instances (like mine) I have now a "nameless" message asking me "Please Hacene do not answer to "disagrees" with personal comments (even if the "disagree" seems unfair to you) - little "wars" are easy to start but hard to stop" which I believe extremely rude. I have tried to contact the moderator regarding that matter, but my emails have not been answered.
Is that what Ian refers to as "quickly sorted out?"
I have worked hard to learn foreign languages and still continue to learn. For me proz is a place to meet with fellow linguists and learn more as well as support. I am very disappointed with the current situation.


sabrygameel wrote:

Dear All,
I found that there are some answerers who use the disagree option to disagree with another answerer which means to weaken its chances of grading in this question. I think that to post another answer means that I'm either neutral or disagree with the answerer and there is no need to disagree with him. In the last few weeks, I notices that there are somekind of a clash and many cases of mutual "disagrees" which I feel not proper to appear on the site. So, what I suggest is to prevent the one who answers from disagreeing with another answerer. Let others decide who is right or what is the most appropriate answer.

Sabry Gameel


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