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An optional, alternative, ungraded list of translators
Thread poster: Subhamay Ray
Subhamay Ray  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:31
English to Bengali
+ ...
Feb 11, 2005

I've been reading a recent post ( http://www.proz.com/topic/29259?start=0 ) with avid attention regarding the Kudoz forum and the gradation of translators according to those points. One of my colleagues said there that anyone on the World Wide Web could ask a Kudoz question, anyone who had signed up, and even without a word in their profile page about themselves, could answer and agree or disagree and the asker, even if he/she doesn't know the language at all or is endowed with the very rudiments of it is given the authority to select the best answer. And on the basis of that selection professional translators are ranked.

Recently in one of the language pairs I frequent someone who has signed up without anything in his/her profile asked 27 questions (some very long ones) in about two or three hours and selected the best answers within two or three minutes of asking those questions! Although this language pair has no moderator, I drew the attention of a moderator to it, and only then it was stopped.

I would like to take this opportunity to request Henry to give those translators who don't want to be ranked according to the Kudoz points they obtained the option of not showing the Kudoz points in their profile page and to have their names in an optional, alternative, preferably alphabetic, list of translators not graded according to any criterion.


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Mario Cerutti  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 13:01
Italian to Japanese
+ ...
Well explained proposal Feb 11, 2005

Subhamay Ray wrote:

I would like to take this opportunity to request Henry to give those translators who don't want to be ranked according to the Kudoz points they obtained the option of not showing the Kudoz points in their profile page and to have their names in an optional, alternative, preferably alphabetic, list of translators not graded according to any criterion.



Interesting proposal. Sould this be possible (let me express my doubts, though), the proposed list might also include those translators who by choice do not want to participate in the Kudoz race, and letting them also express why.

Mario Cerutti


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Jussara Simoes  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 02:01
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Excellent Idea! Feb 11, 2005

I would add that, instead of being "An optional, alternative, ungraded list of translators", the ungraded list should be the mainstream, not the optional one. The optional would be the graded one.

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Steffen Walter  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:01
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
Hiding KudoZ history in one's own profile possible already Feb 11, 2005

Subhamay Ray wrote: ...
I would like to take this opportunity to request Henry to give those translators who don't want to be ranked according to the Kudoz points they obtained the option of not showing the Kudoz points in their profile page and to have their names in an optional, alternative, preferably alphabetic, list of translators not graded according to any criterion.


Hello Subhamay,

The option not to show one's own KudoZ points in the profile is available already - right beneath the KudoZ listing on the right hand side, you should see a feature called "Hide KudoZ history" (this should apply at least to Platinum members).

Best,
Steffen


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Cecilia Civetta  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 05:01
Member (2003)
Italian to Spanish
+ ...
I disagree Feb 11, 2005

Jussara Simoes wrote:

I would add that, instead of being "An optional, alternative, ungraded list of translators", the ungraded list should be the mainstream, not the optional one. The optional would be the graded one.


What do you mean "the ungraded list should be the mainstream, not the optional one. The optional would be the graded one"? I think I'm missing the point here...


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Cecilia Civetta  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 05:01
Member (2003)
Italian to Spanish
+ ...
... Feb 11, 2005

I agree on the fact that in some cases kudoz numbers shouldn’t be taken too seriously.
In my opinion, the number of questions answered should be as visible as the number of kudoz points (now this data is accessible, but not immediately visible). This would give askers a sort of “reliability index” about each kudoz answering member.
I also think it’s only fair that members who don’t want to show their kudoz history can hide it, and this feature has always existed as far as I know.
But... to give priority to non-answerers over answerers when listing members? Well... I think you’re pushing it a bit too far now...


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 06:01
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
How about only validated members allowed to give points? Feb 11, 2005

My proposal is perhaps easier to implement. Anybody could still ask Kudoz-questions and benefit from the answers, but only validated members would be able to decide, which answer is the best and award points. This would probably improve the meaningfulness of the KudoZ-list.
Questions of nonvalidated persons would not recieve any points at all, but would still provide aid to the asker, what is the main purpose of the system.
Regards
Heinrich

PS: Sorry, my original posting mentioned "certified" instead of "validated" translators. What I mean is members, whose identity is validated.

[Edited at 2005-02-11 11:32]


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avsie  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:01
English to French
+ ...
What do you mean by certified? Feb 11, 2005

Heinrich Pesch wrote:

My proposal is perhaps easier to implement. Anybody could still ask Kudoz-questions and benefit from the answers, but only certified members would be able to decide, which answer is the best and award points. This would probably improve the meaningfulness of the KudoZ-list.
Questions of noncertified persons would not recieve any points at all, but would still provide aid to the asker, what is the main purpose of the system.
Regards
Heinrich


Only persons with full-fledged translation diplomas? Or only active members?

There are many active Prozians without a translation diploma who are nonetheless experts in their fields, and also very good translators...

But I might just be interpreting your message in the wrong way, so I appologize in advance


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xxxLia Fail  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 05:01
Spanish to English
+ ...
Qs versus As Feb 11, 2005

Cecilia Civetta wrote:

In my opinion, the number of questions answered should be as visible as the number of kudoz points (now this data is accessible, but not immediately visible).



Subhamay made a very good point about 'just anyone' rating, agreeing and disagreeing.

I never look at a translator's Kudoz points, if I want a picture of how professional they are. I look at the profile in general. Kudoz is a crude and highly subjective measurement. Translator quality is diificult to quantify and a qualitative approach is therefore better.

What actually reveals more about a translator is the questions they ASK, how they ask them, how simple or complex they are etc, rather than the ones they answer.

The answerers may be good, but many people who don't answer are good too, just too busy maybe.



[Edited at 2005-02-11 11:08]


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Amy Williams  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:01
Italian to English
+ ...
hmmmmm Feb 11, 2005

It's a good thought but it has its problems. If the "plain" list were available as an extra ("a non-ranked list can be found here" etc.), then fair enough, although I have to say that as someone who has gone through life at the bottom of the alphabet that doesn't appeal greatly - although I guess if it went by user name (?) then OK! (do I feel an upsurge in "aaaaabrillianttranslator" type names coming on?)

KudoZ has its faults and they seem to be re-hashed on a daily basis on these forums. Like Ailish, I personally find the opportunity to access a translator's answered and asked questions invaluable. While I would welcome a KudoZ average figure, as an outsourcer I will take a look at a translator's KudoZ answers and go to the questions to have a look - you can also work out a rough average for yourself - I appreciate that this does vary wildly according to language and sometimes subject.

I'm going off the subject here. I don't see the harm in creating a straightforward list but I would never want this to become the main list - the whole ranking system has its moments but I do feel that the KudoZ aspect adds something and helps outsourcers in their choice of translator.

One way to improve the directory would be to have a native speaker option, which I have asked for before but which has never materialised, much to my disappointment. I was told by site staff that a "native speaker" octagon would appear on KudoZ answers to help askers in their choice. Apparently moderators already have this facility. If a "native language" field could be added to the directory I would appreciate this.

Yes, there are non-professionals out there and there are non-professionals asking questions and answering them. There are no doubt many people simply interested in languages and not working professionally (where do you draw the line?). But the aim of this site (as far as I can see) is to be inclusive. It's an open web portal so you can only expect jokers and the like to want to abuse it. However, does this affect your clients? Does it affect your chances of getting work? No - because even if a client picks an empty profile with thousands of KudoZ points over yours and they do a poor translation, they'll still come back to you in the end.

You say that "on the basis of that selection professional translators are ranked": yes, all the profiles are listed according to KudoZ points, but I've never viewed the directory or the Leaders boards as a definitive ranking for translators - you put the time and effort into the site and you get a reward for that. There are plenty of other non-ranked directory sites.

It all comes around in the end. The right client always finds you.

Have a good weekend,
Amy


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Subhamay Ray  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:31
English to Bengali
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks! Feb 11, 2005

Steffen Walter wrote:
The option not to show one's own KudoZ points in the profile is available already - right beneath the KudoZ listing on the right hand side, you should see a feature called "Hide KudoZ history" (this should apply at least to Platinum members).


This is not entirely true. Even if you have your 'Kudoz history' hidden, your total number of points is still shown on the top.

My sincere thanks to all my valued colleagues who have expressed their opinion so far. I'll be eager to know what others think about this proposal.


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Jane Lamb-Ruiz  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
Anonymous or Quasi-anonymous answerers Feb 11, 2005

Subhamay,

I think people who answer should be registered and there should be a way of knowing who they are. I disagree that people can sign up (register) with only an email and pseudonym. There should be a de minimis amount of information about people. Now, if they don't want the world to know. OK, fair enough, but Proz should know who they are. If they are not even willing to tell Proz, why should they be treated like all the persons who are giving answers transparently?



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Jussara Simoes  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 02:01
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Anonymous Feb 11, 2005

Jane Lamb-Ruiz wrote:

Subhamay,

I think people who answer should be registered and there should be a way of knowing who they are. I disagree that people can sign up (register) with only an email and pseudonym. There should be a de minimis amount of information about people. Now, if they don't want the world to know. OK, fair enough, but Proz should know who they are. If they are not even willing to tell Proz, why should they be treated like all the persons who are giving answers transparently?




You're absolutely right.

XXXXXXX
JPS


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Subhamay Ray  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:31
English to Bengali
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I agree but Feb 12, 2005

Jane Lamb-Ruiz wrote:

Subhamay,

I think people who answer should be registered and there should be a way of knowing who they are. I disagree that people can sign up (register) with only an email and pseudonym. There should be a de minimis amount of information about people. Now, if they don't want the world to know. OK, fair enough, but ProZ.com should know who they are. If they are not even willing to tell Proz, why should they be treated like all the persons who are giving answers transparently?


Jane,

I agree with you but my concern was not so much those who answer because it is supposed in this site that they are proving themselves (or why is it used for ranking translators?) but the "Askers" -- those who ask questions and select the best answer.

Everyone seems to agree that the Kudoz system is flawed even if we do not take into account the subjective element of translation.

I have never proposed a complete overhaul of the system, not even a modification of the existing directory. I have only asked for an additional directory for those translators who feel like me and do not wish to prove their worth showing the Kudoz points they have obtained.

All the best.

S.R.

[Edited at 2005-02-12 02:53]


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Jussara Simoes  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 02:01
English to Portuguese
+ ...
I agree with Subhamay, too Feb 12, 2005

Subhamay Ray wrote:
I have never proposed a complete overhaul of the system, not even a modification of the existing directory. I have only asked for an additional directory for those translators who feel like me and do not wish to prove their worth showing the Kudoz points they have obtained.
S.R.

[Edited at 2005-02-12 02:53]


I agree with you too.

Both of you ask for very important things, and they could very well be implemented here, and I'd rather not show any kudoz at all. So many people here look at it as a "game". It's all very well, but not everybody likes playing games. If there were not kudoz showing on my profile, I'd come back and help colleagues again, but the way it is now, I simply don't even look at the kudoz questions.

I don't like anonymity, too. I use my full name, my real name, many people here know me in person, so the least I ask of my colleagues is that they show their real names too.

XXXXXXX
JPS


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