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PROZ.COM membership for X KudoZ
Thread poster: xxxsavaria
xxxsavaria
Hungary
Local time: 19:17
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Jul 26, 2006

I suggest that proz.com membership should not be pay-only,but at least a partial membership should also be available for KudoZ.
This way,translators would be more motivated to give answers,and KudoZ can also be used for something useful,not only as a way of expression of expertise in the field of the subject matter.


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Walter Landesman
Uruguay
Local time: 14:17
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Currently available Jul 26, 2006

You may currently use your Kudoz point to partially pay for your membership.
You may also pay only for partial membership.


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Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 20:17
Member (2005)
English to Russian
+ ...
A different point of view Jul 26, 2006

No, Walter, you cannot. You can neither spend KudoZ nor use them on anything. Browniz are used for that.

In response to Gabor, KudoZ are very useful for getting exposure, and I believe there is enough motivation as is to participate in the KudoZ forum.

[Edited at 2006-07-27 08:08]


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Stuart Allsop  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 13:17
Spanish to English
+ ...
Excelent idea! Jul 26, 2006

That's a great idea, Gábor! It makes a lot of sense.

Earning membership discount through earning Kudoz points would be a fantastic incentive to increase both participation and membership.

You can already use Browniz for this purpose, so it makes absolute sense that Kudoz should be of even more value. After all, even a monkey with a mouse could earn thousands of browniz with ease, but earning Kudoz actually requires intelligence, serious translating skill, and a fair amount of effort.

My vote is certainly in favor of your idea.


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Rosa Maria Duenas Rios  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:17
I don't know... Jul 27, 2006

Point grabbers would just increase their undesirable activity if they could pay a membership with Kudoz...

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Stuart Allsop  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 13:17
Spanish to English
+ ...
Not 100%... Jul 27, 2006

Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:

Point grabbers would just increase their undesirable activity if they could pay a membership with Kudoz...
I don't think that would be the case. After all, it's an awful lot easier to grab brownies (all you have to do is click on every "agree" button that you can find), and you can ALREADY trade Browniz for membership discounts, yet I don't see too many people doing that.

Seeing that it is an awful lot harder to earn 100 Kudoz points than it is to earn 100 Browniz points, it stands to reason that anyone who really wanted to get "cheap" membership would be able to do it much quicker and much more easily using the currently "monkey with a mouse" method, of just clicking on "agrees".

Earning Kudoz requires intelligence, commitment, decent translation skills, and a desire to help. Earning Browniz just requires a mouse. So if somebody is REALLY intent on getting a discount, then Browniz is simpler by far.


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Walter Landesman
Uruguay
Local time: 14:17
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
I was wrong Jul 27, 2006

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:

No, Walter, you cannot. You can neither spend KudoZ nor use them on anything. Browniz are used for that.

In response tio Gabor, KudoZ are very useful for getting exposure, and I believe there is enough motivation as is to participate in the KudoZ forum.


I`m sorry, my mistake. I was thinking of Browniz. I got mixed up.


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Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:17
French to English
Predicting human behaviour Jul 27, 2006

Stuart Allsop wrote:

Seeing that it is an awful lot harder to earn 100 Kudoz points than it is to earn 100 Browniz points, it stands to reason that anyone who really wanted to get "cheap" membership would be able to do it much quicker and much more easily using the currently "monkey with a mouse" method, of just clicking on "agrees".


Certainly in the Fr-Eng pair, there was recently one individual who realised this, and agreed with quite literally every single answer posted (they've stopped now, I'd like to think it was because they were suspended, rather than because they achieved their objective)


Earning Kudoz requires intelligence, commitment, decent translation skills, and a desire to help.

Or possibly a desire to accumulate points in order to appear higher in the directory (and thus increase your chances of getting work, in theory at least), resulting in a scattergun approach to answering anything and everything, 'cos you're bound to get some right, by the law of averages.

Whilst I admire your idealistic view of how the kudoz system ought to work, you should take a look at this so-recent-its-still-running thread about how it works in practice:
http://www.proz.com/topic/51612

The other flaw in the proposal is a logical one: the points are used to determine rankings in the directory (rightly or wrongly). Assuming this remains the case (which I think it will), you cannot, logically, have a ranking system (given what that ranking is supposed to represent) whereby, if individual A has 200 points but has spent 3000 points on membership, they appear lower than individual B with 400 points and membership paid for entirely with money. Under the current system, A's greater efforts should surely deserve some "reward" i.e. a higher place in the rankings. Which should, by the logic of the system, lead to more work, which means that A can afford to pay for his/her membership with money too


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Christian
Local time: 19:17
English to German
+ ...
I agree with Rosa Jul 27, 2006

Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:

Point grabbers would just increase their undesirable activity if they could pay a membership with Kudoz...


Couldn't agree more. We would have more point grabbers than ever. If you think it's necessary to be a member here, you should pay for it. However, I would understand users who complain about the extemely high membership fees; it's a luxury far beyond some people's pocket.


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Stuart Allsop  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 13:17
Spanish to English
+ ...
Cheats can chear ALREADY. That's not the point. Jul 27, 2006

Charlie Bavington wrote:


if individual A has 200 points but has spent 3000 points on membership, they appear lower than individual B with 400 points and membership paid for entirely with money.


I don't think we are talking about PAYING for membership by "using" the Kudoz points. Rather, I'd say that simply accumulating a certain number of Kudoz per year would be the measuring stick. For example, accumulating X number of points earns you a 5% discount, Y number of points earns you 10%, Z gets you 20%, or whatever it turns out to be. Not that this number of points is deducted from your total (as is the case with Browniz, which are basically worthless anyway), but rather the points are simply recognized. In other words, you don't "spend" the Kudoz: You always keep them. But simply accumulating a large number of them in a year would be enough to earn you the right to a discount.

In relation to your objection regarding "point grabbers" who use the shotgun approach, I think you entirely missed the point here: Those who want to cheat can ALREADY do so. The proposed system would not change a thing for them. They can still munch on bananas, swing from trees, and click on the mouse every time they see an "agree" box. Nobody is talking about changing that old system, so those who are inherently dishonest can continue to be so.

No, this is not about helping lazy cheats: they can carry on being lazy cheats. This is about rewarding those who do actually want to help others out, and don't mind using their skills and their time to do so.

After all, there are numerous ways offered each year for getting a discount on membership, that require no effort at all, so I simply cannot understand objections for adding one more method that DOES require some effort.

What many folks fail to appreciate here is that the entire point of Proz.com is the glossary, and the vast majority of the content of the glossary has been provided by those who have earned tens of thousands of Kudoz points. If you ask me, the very LEAST that Proz.com could do, is to actually recognize those who do the lions share of creating and feeding proz.com.


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Maria Rosich Andreu  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 19:17
Member (2003)
Dutch to Spanish
+ ...
unfair for smaller communitites Jul 27, 2006

Speaking as a member of some smaller communities with less Kudoz questions a day, I think this system would be unfair to the members that work only in smaller language pairs. Brownies do not make that distinction, everyone can get them if they contribute to the site.

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Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:17
French to English
OK, I see what you mean Jul 27, 2006

Stuart Allsop wrote:

I don't think we are talking about PAYING for membership by "using" the Kudoz points. Rather, I'd say that simply accumulating a certain number of Kudoz per year would be the measuring stick. For example, accumulating X number of points earns you a 5% discount, Y number of points earns you 10%, Z gets you 20%, or whatever it turns out to be.


OK, that is slightly different to how I interpreted the original suggestion. It certainly solves one of my objections, I'll grant you that.

However, it would do nothing to reduce the "rubbish", since there is still a financial advantage to be gained by suggesting as many an answers as possible - unless we made the system more complicated, by using a rule along the lines of X points/year plus an acceptance rate of y%....

Also, Maria's point about minor language pairs is valid.

There again, I guess you could also add rule making it all proportional to the number of Qs asked in your stated language pairs (it would obviously need to be a fairly small proportion). Might also have the benefit of making people think twice about claiming to master language pairs that they have no real idea about....

Bags I NOT be the person that has to write the code


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Parrot  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 19:17
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
I have to agree with Maria Jul 27, 2006

BrowniZ are a nice quiet way of paying for membership. Not as flashy as kudoZ points, but by uploading a personal glossary in any language, for example, you still get good publicity whenever anyone needs the KOG/personal glossary function (and the points are the same as for entering terms).

(Or are we forgetting the glossaries? Jeez, the number of times we have to remind each other...)

Other ways of earning Browniz are Powwows, articles in the knowledgebase, contributions to GlossPost...

On the other hand, directly linking a financial reward system to kudoZ seems an artificial stimulus that's not exactly called for.


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Rosa Maria Duenas Rios  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:17
Totally agree with María Jul 27, 2006

Maria Rosich Andreu wrote:

Speaking as a member of some smaller communities with less Kudoz questions a day, I think this system would be unfair to the members that work only in smaller language pairs. Brownies do not make that distinction, everyone can get them if they contribute to the site.


And also, if a discounted membership is already available with Browniz, what would be the purpose of using Kudoz points instead?


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Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 19:17
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
Erm..... Jul 27, 2006

"......but earning KudoZ actually requires intelligence, serious translating skill, and a fair amount of effort."

Ojalá.

Andy


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