| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | English Native Speaker Thread poster: Kim Metzger
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Ruxi
German to Romanian
+ ...
| Who can verify native speakers? | Jan 9, 2007 |
The problem with native speakers is indeed very difficult, because of the numerous aspects and because there is no document to attest the mother tongue.
Can anyone anywhere produce a legal document attesting his/her mother tongue?
Also who and on what basis could verify if a person is native speaker of a language.
Now some situations:
1. Parents do have other native language(s), but never speak at home. They and the child are talking the language of the place they are liv... See more The problem with native speakers is indeed very difficult, because of the numerous aspects and because there is no document to attest the mother tongue.
Can anyone anywhere produce a legal document attesting his/her mother tongue?
Also who and on what basis could verify if a person is native speaker of a language.
Now some situations:
1. Parents do have other native language(s), but never speak at home. They and the child are talking the language of the place they are living in.
Which is the native language of that child? You may say that mother tongue is the one a child learns form his parents. Well in this case it is not and there are a lot of families in such a situation.
2. People whose natice country and language suddenly changed, due to political events.
E.g people from the former USSR, or former Yugoslavia, or Czechoslovakia.
Which is their native language? They were born e.g with Russian, now they suddenly call themselves Ukraine, Lituanian aso. Should they clame Russian to be their native language now, or is Ukraine, Lituanina aso their native language?
Should Slovakian people claim Czech language as their native language now? Before sepprataion they all talked the same Czech language, or Russian. Not to say about the lot of ex-Yugoslavian little countries, each with a new language. Before it was only one language they all used everywhere (at school, at home) - Serbian.
3. What is the native language of a person whose family is emmigrated in another country for generations? Is his/her native language that of the ancestors (which he/she might know very well out of interest), or the one of the country he/she lives in?
4. What about the persons who are bi- or multilingual. Who can say which is mother tongue actually is and verify the level?
Let's say a child has each parent of another mother tongue and has been born in a third country. How do you define his mother tongue? And how is multilingualism to be considered if anyone has only to have a mother tongue?
5. What about the situation of dialects or small languages? Who can anyone say his mother tongue is German, or Italian when that person actually only uses a regional dialect in his family?
6. What is the mother tongue of an Austrian or a Belgian let's say? Would you call it German for an Austrian? Yes, in Austria or Switzerland you speak actually German, but not really. Still a person of one of those countries can claim German as a mother tongue too, for translations, the same with English for UK and US, French for Belgium, Canada, Africa and France. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ruxi
German to Romanian
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| Near-native exists | Jan 9, 2007 |
You see how many unclear situations are?
And didn't even finish the list!
Now about near - native proficiency. It exists, why shouldn't it?
Why should a person using from childhood and/or living years in a country, not have the right to claim near-native proficiency of that language?
That person could also claim it as a second or near-native language for translations aims. Why not?
The classification made by the EU and mentioned on this thread is also very usefull.<... See more You see how many unclear situations are?
And didn't even finish the list!
Now about near - native proficiency. It exists, why shouldn't it?
Why should a person using from childhood and/or living years in a country, not have the right to claim near-native proficiency of that language?
That person could also claim it as a second or near-native language for translations aims. Why not?
The classification made by the EU and mentioned on this thread is also very usefull.
In any field, including translation, the most important things are: level of the language skills and specialisation field, experience, and even native talent.
Agencies want to make sure of a certain level by asking for native speakers of a language, but they can not check the truth because a. it is impossible and b. it is not important.
Important is that the translation is correct in e.g English and not if your parents are/were UK or US or so.
Mistakes? Everybody does them, including 100% native speakers (for generations). Proof-reading is a tool to check about mistakes in a documents, wether written by a native speaker or not.
The level of a language skills and the capacity of translations is not given by the language you learned from your parents at home, but by the school, by the studies and some native talents. If parents or people arround speak a certain level of a language, this is what a child gets, including grammar mistakes, or even wrong terms used. If this child has a certain talent and/or he continues to study well at school and privately (by reading, listening, aso) and also graduates some universitary studies (no matter in what field), he can be able to translate and also has achieved another proficiency of his native language.
This is what we should talk about here, not about the languages/dialects our parents and neighbours talk.
And let's not confuse the nationality with the citisenship: a UK citizen is not always a British person (in what nationality and mother tongue regards). Because many people automatically put a label like: X is UK, so his mother tongue is English. Wrong! X's mother tongue could be also Irish, Welsh, but also Romanian, African or French.
BTW: I did not mean to offend any person of any nationality, I only wanted to give some examples of things/events influencing the native language of a person. Nobody is personal guilty of the evolution of the world.
[Bearbeitet am 2007-01-09 11:54] ▲ Collapse
| | | | transparx 
United States
Local time: 07:38
English to Italian
+ ...
| a few thoughts | Jan 12, 2007 |
Konstantin Kisin wrote:
For example, there are many illiterate people in the UK. They cannot spell, their grammar is terrible and they make mistakes when speaking English ("We was going to the shop", "So I says to him" etc). Are they native speakers? Grudgingly, one would have to admit that they are unless one is prepared to suggest that there are millions of people around the world without a native language.
I liked your analysis and examples, but, as a linguist, I'm not sure I understand the following question:
Konstantin Kisin wrote:
Are they native speakers?
Of course, everyone is a native speaker of some linguistic variety. The people you are referring to may very well not be native speakers of standard English, though, as you yourself imply, the problem here is of a different nature, namely, lack of literacy.
In addition, I do not think these speakers make mistakes when speaking English. I don't think, in other words, that they say "We was going to the shop", "So I says to him," etc. because they don't know better. They say so because that's their language. Here in New York, many people say "I says;" in fact, I know at least one native ESL teacher who often uses this interjection when speaking informally.
I am sure you are aware of all of this, but perhaps it is important not to confuse those people who do not have much linguistic (and sociolinguistic) awareness -and I must admit there seem to be quite a few on this site.
Another point I'd like to comment on is the following:
Konstantin Kisin wrote:
Grudgingly, one would have to admit that they are unless one is prepared to suggest that there are millions of people around the world without a native language.
I am probably getting more and more prepared to suggest just that, if by "native language" we mean native languages "that count," that is, standard languages of recognized nations. The term "alingual," whose primary meaning, as far as I know, is something else, is now sometimes used to refer to this very phenomenon.
You say you are fully bilingual, and I'm happy for you. You don't have to go through the periodic crises that affect and afflict those who simply can't decide what their dominant language is -at least not always. I have spent exactly half of my life in the States and the other half in Italy, yet I would never dream of claiming English as my native language -in fact, I am quite proud of having reached a high level of proficiency despite the fact that I moved to the States well past the so-called critical age. Unfortunately, however, while I could easily write a linguistics paper in English, for instance, I'm sure I would have a fairly hard time doing so in Italian. Sometimes, I think I am alingual, too, though, in my case, this fact is masked by my level of education, which helps me walk the tightrope between a language that was left and one that was never completely found. I believe -but perhaps I'm wrong- that many other people are in a situation analogous to mine.
...
Going back to the topic of the thread, I feel that the question that Kim raised is a very important one. Although, as I said, I would never even think of claiming that I am a native speaker of English, I believe many others do simply because they want to set themselves apart from, say, someone who has just graduated in languages in his or her own country and who has just started using English as his or her source language.
I agree with Michele that it would be desirable if members could have more than one category to choose from when indicating their language proficiency. This might minimize -or at least significantly reduce- the likelihood that some will select English as their native language for lack of a more appropriate option, while allowing those who would never do so to easily identify themselves, without having to write a whole paragraph to explain who they are linguistically.
Finally, I also agree with Williamson. I have been contacted by quite a few agencies, and none of them has ever complained about my work. In my opinion, the problem Can has raised is of a different sort. Many of the translation agencies that these days are roaming the Internet are managed by people who, I believe, have very little linguistic awareness, and this may be one of the factors that lead some translators to claim English as their native language. A way to overcome this problem might be to educate the people who run and manage such agencies. This, I admit, entails much work, but it would yield results in the long run --if nothing else, with respect to professional and intellectual honesty, given that people would no longer have to lie about their languages. The good news is that this new approach could be initiated right here on Proz.com. But in order for this to happen, it is important that concepts such as "native," "native equivalent," and "near native" be properly understood and defined, as has been proposed.
| | | | Yaotl Altan
Mexico
Local time: 05:38
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
+ ...
I chose Spanish and English Native Speaker a long time ago. I think it was in 2005 when I found Proz and completed my profile but rarely used it. I accuse myself of comitting this mistake and want to solve it. What can I do? Indeed, my native Languages are Spanish and Italian.
What can I do?
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Brandis (X)
Local time: 13:38
English to German
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| not agreeable... | May 27, 2008 |
Konstantin Kisin wrote: Whenever this topic has surfaced I have always sought to identify a meaning of the word "native" which would be appropriate for Proz.com as a language services marketplace. This is more difficult than one might imagine. For example, there are many illiterate people in the UK. They cannot spell, their grammar is terrible and they make mistakes when speaking English ("We was going to the shop", "So I says to him" etc). Are they native speakers? Grudgingly, one would have to admit that they are unless one is prepared to suggest that there are millions of people around the world without a native language. Another example: somebody born in the UK who moved to Germany at the age of 18. She has lived in Germany for 42 years and, through her deep interest in German culture and the language, is now in a position to produce written texts that are far superior to those of her German friends and colleagues. Unfortunately, however, she was never able to eliminate a rather thick English accent and sounds obviously foreign to the native ear. Is she a native speaker? I'd venture a guess to the effect that most people would be unwilling to accept somebody with a thick accent as a native speaker of a language. And the final example: a German who moved to the UK at the age of 20 and spent 30 years in a business that involved talking to people on the phone and in person. As a result of this process he got rid of his German accent and is thus regularly mistaken for someone born & bred in the UK. However, his command of written English improved little in that time and he still makes spelling and grammatical mistakes, uses German constructions and is otherwise unable to express himself in clear and correct written English. Is he a native speaker of English? Again, most would argue that he is not since he can't write a proper sentence in English. Given the 3 examples, it is now important to consider the context of this discussion. We are talking about *language services*, not sociolinguistics. In my view, from the language service perspective, people in example 1 are not native speakers, the lady in example 2 should be considered a native when it comes to translation, while the guy in example 3 is a native for interpreting purposes. Therefore, if a translator claims to be a native speaker of Farsi on Proz.com all we need to do is verify that their written command of Farsi is of a certain level. As someone with two genuine native languages I would more than welcome the opportunity to have my nativeness certified here at Proz.com and would be willing to pay a small fee for the service in return for a "CERTIFIED NATIVE LANGUAGES" notice on my profile 
| | | | | not in all instances | May 29, 2008 |
Brandis wrote:
Do we have to submit our passports and social security cards too. Brandis
In some cases one's inability to speak a language is easier to identify...
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