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Two KudoZ suggestions ! - Anonymity and random order. (Staff:'done')
Thread poster: xxxTService
xxxTService  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:37
English to German
Dec 27, 2002

I think we had that issues once before - but I fear there\'s no way to ignore the need as it is badly required.



Suggestions regarding KudoZ questions should be posted anonymous.

Otherwise the following will happen (and DOES happen continuously):



1) Women very frequently agree with women.

That\'s no act of prejudice - it\'s quite real. I discussed that matter with other translators - and I am not the only one to notice that.



2) Men prefer to agree with women.

It\'s natural. Many men wish to have the sympathy of women - agreeing is a very convenient way of adulation. I once asked a fellow translator why he agreed to a clearly wrong translation. Answer: \"I like that picture of her.\"



3) Many people trick other\'s into agreeing with them by saying \"Thank you\" with every agree they receive. People love and need the feeling of being liked. But I\'ve seen it way too often: A hair-raising suggestion is posted - but quite a bunch of men is eager to agree to get their daily potion of pats on the back and one of that bitterly needed \"Thank you soooo much !\"



4) Some translators only agree to a small selection of other translators - no matter if the suggestion is correct or pure nonsense - and never agree to others they see as rivals.



I discussed all four aforementioned items with colleagues - so I am pretty sure that I am not the only one who noticed that. And I cannot be the only one who studied psychology (as a subsidiary subject).



KudoZ questions should provide help to the asker - I just do not want to believe that KudoZ is purely invented to help people establish social contacts at the price of delivering wrong answers to people who need professional help.



The solution\'s quite simple: Just have every KudoZ suggestion posted anonymous. That\'s the only way of people agreeing or diagreeing to the SUGGESTION - not to the PERSON.



Don\'t get me wrong: Do not hide the names of people agreeing or disagreeing to suggestions. Doing so would raise the level of aggression; anonymity always is the perfect booster for that sort of \"communication\".



KudoZ points are of no great help when it comes to getting a certain job. But KudoZ points may be used to show a certain expertise. But that is of no value if you do not know how that proof of expertise is achieved - by expertise or by sympathy or just by trying a different way to find a partner.

The latter clearly leads to a false certificate of expertise and misleads outsourcers when seeking for the perfect person to assign a job to.



I am quite aware of the fact that nobody will admit that he does not solely act upon the suggestion itself - but we all know that in many cases this is not the fact.

---

For the second suggestion:

Post KudoZ suggestions in a random order.

Everybody has seen that: Four suggestions are given, the last one is the perfect match. But it\'s the last one - so many people just do not scroll down far enough to read all suggestions.

Some days ago I saw a KudoZ question followed by four different answers. The first three were just ok, the fourth suggestion was the perfect solution. (Ok, that\'s my opinion.) Nobody agreed to the fourth solution; I was the only one who did. The asker selected the most clumsy suggestion - you guessed it: It was the first suggestion given.



So please do think about presenting the suggestions in a random order. It cannot make things worse - but might improve translation quality.



Jörn...

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2005-02-03 19:37]


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Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 08:37
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
Mirror on the wall.... Dec 27, 2002

Jörn, changing rules won\'t change people.



1. So, women should rule the world? But they do not.

2. Cutie, this goes also the other way around. Women tend to agree with men because \"he\'s so cute\".



You take KudoZ FAR too seriously. However, I do agree with you on the glimpses caught of people\'s psychology. And that is the interesting aspect of this game.





Maya


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xxxTService  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:37
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
To Maya: Dec 27, 2002

Hello Maya,



I know that it takes more to change people... 70 years of asking why people did nothing when asked to agree to a \"total war\" - and seeing the outcome nowadays as the same question is asked with a slightly different spelling makes that absolutely clear. :/



But I think that\'s no reason for not speaking up if one sees that some things simply go wrong - and if it appears so easy to correct that.



I am quite sure that I will get some pretty rude reactions on my claims - but I can deal with that easily.



In Germany we have a saying: \"Kaum sagt einer die Wahrheit - schon sitzt die halbe Nation auf dem Sofa und ist beleidigt.\" (As soon as one tells the truth - half of the nation will feel offended.)


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Susanna & Christian Popescu GbR
Germany
Local time: 08:37
Romanian to German
+ ...
Anonymizing answers isn't such a bad idea Dec 27, 2002

I won\'t discuss the psychological arguments here, though I agree with some of them. Still, I strongly believe that anonymizing answers would enhance the degree of objectivity. I think that some askers even grade answers of others who had often helped them before, but in their translations they use answers which better fit their contexts than the ones graded. I also think some askers tend to grade answers of compatriots rather than accepting the idea that a non-native speaker can provide correct answers as well (sometimes even better ones).



On the other hand I don\'t agree with the idea that writing *thank you* below an agree roots in the need of being liked. I simply believe that it is a simple matter of politeness, at least this is the impulse I feel when smb. agrees with my answers, taking into account that at least some of those who posted their opinions below had also spent some time with verifying your answer.




[addsig]


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Catherine Bolton  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:37
Member (2002)
Italian to English
+ ...
misogyny Dec 27, 2002

I have received plenty of \"agrees\" on my answers and my name certainly doesn\'t indicate my gender. The \"c\" could stand for Charles, Colin, Carol or Christine.

I also notice you don\'t mention the gender of those \"other translators\" who agree with you. All women? All men? Half and half?



Proz has no place for misogyny. I agree: delete or lock this thread.


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Egmont
Spain
Local time: 08:37
Afrikaans to Spanish
+ ...
Inquisition strikes back... Dec 27, 2002

Be careful, Jörn...
[addsig]


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Egmont
Spain
Local time: 08:37
Afrikaans to Spanish
+ ...
Inquisition strikes back... Dec 27, 2002

I agree with you, Jörn...
[addsig]


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Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 08:37
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
Misogyny? Inquisition? Come on... Dec 27, 2002

If men feel oppressed, let them say so.

Nice feeling anyway, for a change. And there will be some compassion and understanding, because women know what it is about...





Maya


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Jacek Krankowski  Identity Verified
English to Polish
+ ...
What about serial askers? Dec 27, 2002

Not that I care too much about them, but it is always nice to be able to check, by looking up the asker\'s profile, whether the new batch of those medical questions comes from someone who does not list medical among his/her fields at all or, on the contrary, claims to be an expert in the field.



I do agree with you that psychology plays quite a part in our evaluation of KudoZ answers, e.g., someone who has a well established record is more likely to get agrees than a newbie or someone who is not active. An asker may be even looking forward to answers from specific answerers knowing that they specialize in a certain field, which does not mean, of course, they are infallible, but does increase the chances of their answers being more reliable than those of jacks of all trades.


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xxxTService  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:37
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
To Maya; again... ;) Dec 27, 2002

I fear you did not get the gist of my posting.

If you like to address me as \"cutie\" I take that as a compliment; but I have to admit that you will not win my heart, I regret.

I will not address you as \"cutie\"; you\'ll find out for yourself, why.



Better ask yourself a question: Do you want to help askers with their problems ?

If so you should try to analyze what is best for an asker. If he gets a correct and accurate answer - or something pushed by personal sympathy or antipathy.

So you may read the other opinions in this thread and you\'ll realize that many people noticed that the system of agreeing or diagreeing to KudoZ question is a bit problematic.

As a programmer I think that implementing this quite simple changes won\'t be too complicated.



And worth a try.


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xxxTService  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:37
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
What do have to lose ? Dec 27, 2002

I knew that it would become a hard ride when suggesting this changes.



Just ask yourself: What do you have to lose ?



If you provide proper translations - you\'ll have your agrees just like before.



If you fear to lose KudoZ points when you have to give anonymous suggestions - you should think about the reason.



If you feel offended - think twice.



KudoZ points are quite nice - but I would place suggestions without any rewarding points. I just like difficult questions und I like to do my job.

KudoZ points are of no great help when applying for a job.

KudoZ is about helping people who need assistance.

True assistance. It\'s of no help if they\'re provided with wrong answers - just because you like the person who suggested them.



Again: What do you have to lose ?


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JCEC  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 02:37
Member
English to French
I hate to disagree Dec 27, 2002

I have been very active on the EnglishFrench KudoZ scene for the past few months and my observations are somewhat different:



- People have a tendency to agree with translators who have a good track record. Which can be very embarrassing when you make a mistake, which happens to all of us.



- People agree with translators who share their cultural background: Canadians with Canadians, Americans with Americans, etc. Which is normal considering the difference in terminology and its use.



If I were an asker, I would like to know who made the suggestion. Some answerers are extremely qualified and I know who they are. Some answerers are extremely unreliable to the point where I research their answers to make sure they don?t mislead askers. Others still are flaky, usually good but they have their off moments. And, of course, I would like to know whether I?m dealing with someone who knows my target market and has experience in the particular field.



John

[ This Message was edited by:on2002-12-27 15:05]


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xxxTService  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:37
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
To JCEC: Dec 27, 2002

> People agree with translators who share their cultural background: Canadians with Canadians, Americans with Americans, etc. Which is normal considering the difference in terminology and its use.



I have to admit: Point taken !



Reminds me of a question about a week ago: A KudoZ questions dealt with a street address in Germany, so the chaos was obvious: Germans saw a street address, foreign translators thought of a faulty machine translation.

As the topic was a letter it was very likely that it indeed was a street address. But questions of that kind are extremely difficult to answer if you do not live in Germany and do not know about the local habits with naming streets.



So it might be VERY helpful if the nationality of an asker will be shown with the answer.



That should do the job.


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xxxTService  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:37
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
To cbolton... ;) Dec 27, 2002

Misogyny AND misandry, if any...



You saw me criticizing women.

Just a sentence later you saw me criticizing men.



So why do you just talk of misogyny if I criticize people of both genders ?



Better save your energy for something more productive. - If you do not like the reasons I mentioned (just show me how to criticize something without criticizing anything)- what do you think about my suggestions ?


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Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 08:37
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
Let's get serious... Dec 27, 2002

I took this thread very lightly, Jörn, with a smile and calling you \"cutie\", an attitude which is not part of my habits. I took it even more lightly since some immediately painted Inquisition and Misogyny on the wall.



Now, let\'s get serious. I have not been a proZ member for very long (a bit longer than you) but I have seen others of the kind: Last year it was natives against non-natives; heaps of colloquialisms thrown in the face of the non-natives to prove they should not even be around; typos branded as proof that the person should be forbidden to answer questions; flame wars fought, hate mails sent. Tons. Then it was the turn of \"real\" translators vs. engineers and the like turned translators. Trash of course for the purists.

When I joined, funny things went on, people asking questions and others answering seconds afterwards, always the same groups. Newcomers suddenly earning hundreds of points per day. Hm. Someone, somehow put a stop to it.

Things returned to normal. The native flame throwers retired and all was quiet on the proZ front.

When I joined, 80 % (that\'s a pure guess) of the answers ended with HTH and \"have a nice day\" etc. And \"thank you\" was almost compulsory. That has stopped too. But the thanks are back now. Does it matter?

What I\'d like to stress is that the climate today is better than it was a year ago. People are ever so nice to each other. No comparison with the venom spat in the recent past.

There will always be some funny things going on. I do not thinks this is a men vs. women thing, but rather an inconscious herd feeling among some peers. People searching others out, forming a group without knowing it. Maybe, maybe not.

We have some queens or little mothers, we have fair rivals congratulating each other. Cute, but not very professional.

But KudoZ is a game. I can\'t take it seriously.

Why do you?

Greetings

Maya





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Two KudoZ suggestions ! - Anonymity and random order. (Staff:'done')

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