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Terminology help by non-native speakers
Thread poster: John Kinory
John Kinory
Local time: 03:02
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Dec 6, 2001

Dear fellow Prozies,



With regard to Ask a Pro (posting terminology requests for help): may I appeal to members who are neither native apeakers nor immersed in the culture of the target language by living in that country, not to post suggestions that are clearly guesses.



There are 2 situations:



1) They speak the target language, but are unfamiliar with the source term.

2) The source term is clear to the asker, but they want help with the target.



In case (1), native speakers of the source language are best placed to clarify thge meaning of the term.



But in case (2), they are not the best people to advice on the target-language equivalent.



Yesterday, I noticed that a rather technical and subtle concept (Ger>Brit.Eng) was being answered by several members who appear to be neither native English speakers nor live in Britain. The German term was not the problem, but rather the BE. Several of those members indicated complete confidence in their answers, but they were all (equally completely) wrong (incl. the one chosen by the asker, who therefore was being misled).



Please take this to heart - thanks!



John Kinory
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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 22:02
German to English
+ ...
Good point, John Dec 6, 2001

I said pretty much the same thing a long time ago.



You are absolutely right; KudoZ is for helping people, not for confusing (or even misleading) the poor asker even more at the expense of collecting as many points as possible.


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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 04:02
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
Source & Tagert Language Dec 8, 2001

John,



I agree with you a native speaker should be able to understand the meaning of a word in all its aspects, but might not be in the position to propose a good translation for it in the target language, especially if he/she hasn\'t lived or does\'nt live in that Country. That\'s no question.



(I don\'t want to be polemical, believe me I am very far from that, but why didn\'t you propose something, if you were so sure the other proposals were wrong? Was the question already \"closed\", as you spotted it? If it is so, we go back to another point in KudoZ, that is that some questions are closed too quickly... unfortunately, for the asker him/herself!)



The problem exists even in the opposite form: one might be best qualified to propose an answer in the target language, but not \"qualified\" enough to fully understand the meaning of a word in the source language and mislead to a false translation (for that context, but completely correct in the dictionary). I am referring to a concrete case, it\'s not philosophical speculation





Anyway, it is true, just struggling for cashing KudoZ points.



Regards,



Giuliana
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John Kinory
Local time: 03:02
English to Hebrew
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Knowing the correct answer when it's too late Dec 8, 2001

Hi Giuliana,



In this particular case, it was too late. In some previous cases, I did propose an answer but it wasn\'t chosen.



Not sure what to do: I believe we are discouraged from contacting the asker directly - though I can\'t see that emailing them directly and politely can (a) do any harm, (b) detected by a moderator unless they complain .



Cheers,



John
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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 04:02
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
Life in KudoZ Dec 8, 2001

Hi John,



I think the best we can do is to support our proposals with a short explanation \"on site\" (and eventually type the address of an useful link,if available), which I consider a reference, because one can\'t add a short, but detailled explanation without fully understanding the matter.



I understand what you mean, still I wouldn\'t contact the asker privately, after all you did your best and helped. It might sound frustrating, still this is \"Life in KudoZ\".



Cheers,



Giuliana


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John Kinory
Local time: 03:02
English to Hebrew
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Life in Proz Dec 8, 2001

Hi Giuliana,



Although I like to think of myself as a helpful person, I agree that there must be a limit (as long as the situation meets the conditions of Cauchy\'s theorem; - don\'t worry, it\'s a mathematical joke!).



There is another aspect, though; I wonder how many askers are swayed by a responder\'s _perceived_ expertise, as displayed by their Kudoz total. It seems to be a positive feedback loop: the more of someone\'s wrong answers are accepted, the higher their total, therefore the more likely it is that their next wrong answer would be accepted. I would like to know what influenced those askers to accept the wrong answer.



Cheers,

John
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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 04:02
English to German
+ ...
No problem with a direct contact... Dec 8, 2001

...there have been a number of occasions where I spotted the selection of an incorrect term. I have never hesitated to contact the asker directly, pointing out why I thought the chosen term was wrong - and usually, they have been rather happy about that.



(Of course no KudoZ are awarded for this... so what...)


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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 04:02
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
Fame & Truth Dec 9, 2001

Hi John and Ralf,



I am sure the high number of KudoZ points influences the asker, but aren\'t we all influenced by the credentials showed by a physician or by the fact he/she is well-known and established? I think we all tend to trust who seems to be better qualified, especially if we don\'t know the person, until we find out we were wrong.



Ralf, I didn\'t mean there\'s something wrong with contacting the asker privately. Virtually, I thought about the cases in which one has provided an answer, too, but another answer was chosen... some people are very \"sensitive\" and might think one might be upset, because his/her answer wasn\'t chosen and awarded.



(I have learned to be very cautious in adding a personal comment even next to my \"agrees\", as some people seem to be disturbed by that, forgetting it was meant as an extra help for the asker and that I had clicked on \"agree\" anyway.)



Cheers,



Giuliana


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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 22:02
German to English
+ ...
Taking asker's expertise into account Dec 10, 2001

Quote:


On 2001-12-08 10:34, Yoni wrote:

Hi Giuliana,



Although I like to think of myself as a helpful person, I agree that there must be a limit (as long as the situation meets the conditions of Cauchy\'s theorem; - don\'t worry, it\'s a mathematical joke!).



There is another aspect, though; I wonder how many askers are swayed by a responder\'s _perceived_ expertise, as displayed by their Kudoz total. It seems to be a positive feedback loop: the more of someone\'s wrong answers are accepted, the higher their total, therefore the more likely it is that their next wrong answer would be accepted. I would like to know what influenced those askers to accept the wrong answer.



Cheers,

John







Since I don\'t really post any KudoZ questions myself (I think only 3 or 4 since the \"birth\" of ProZ), I can\'t say too much about askers being swayed by the credentials of respondents. However, I do take the asker\'s expertise (or lack thereof) into consideration when it comes to answering their questions. For example, there is that one woman who repeatedly accepts jobs from German to English, even though neither language is her mother tongue (she does not live in an English-speaking country either). Of course, she always floods this site with her questions, because she is simply not qualified at all. As a matter of principle, I do not answer her questions. And there are several others on my personal \"hit list\".

[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-12-10 02:07 ]

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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 04:02
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
PR and Jobs Dec 10, 2001

[quote]

.........



For example, there is that one woman who repeatedly accepts jobs from German to English, even though neither language is her mother tongue (she does not live in an English-speaking country either). Of course, she always floods this site with her questions, because she is simply not qualified at all.





Hi Werner,



her PR manager must be great though!



Big mouths catches many flies....



Anyway, I wonder how this can happen and repeatedly, as you say (I don\'t \"visit\" the GER>EN pair as I am not qualified for useful answers).

Her low rates, perhaps?! Old thread....



As a matter of principle, I do not answer her questions. And there are several others on my personal \"hit list\".



I understand what you mean, but it won\'t make a big difference with so many willing to propose an answer...



The only thing I can say is good for her and for all the others who can make a living out of illusions.... for a while



Cheers,



Giuliana
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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 22:02
German to English
+ ...
Same old, same old Dec 10, 2001

Quote:


On 2001-12-10 16:52, docgy wrote:

her PR manager must be great though!



Big mouths catches many flies....



Anyway, I wonder how this can happen and repeatedly, as you say (I don\'t \"visit\" the GER>EN pair as I am not qualified for useful answers).

Her low rates, perhaps?! Old thread....



I understand what you mean, but it won\'t make a big difference with so many willing to propose an answer...



The only thing I can say is good for her and for all the others who can make a living out of illusions.... for a while



Cheers,



Giuliana







Of course, she charges low rates. It may be \"good\" for her, but bad for her clients, because they end up with rubbish (she is actually defrauding her clients; \"foreign-to-foreign\" translations are always acts of fraud).

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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 04:02
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
Of Course! Dec 11, 2001

[quote]

On 2001-12-10 17:58, AbacusTrans wrote:

[quote]



Of course, she charges low rates. It may be \"good\" for her, but bad for her clients, because they end up with rubbish





Hi Werner,



That\'s for sure! Just a bitter ironical comment... as you can see, I added \"for a while\" and meant exactly what always happens: it takes a while, until the first complaints come in, an agency checks the trouble with the translator (because not all complaints are legitime, as you know) or the clients with the translator, but a steady number of complaints has to drive any unqualified translator out of business.



The sooner the better!



Giuliana


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