| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Isn't it a good idea to hide my answer iff Thread poster: Chinoise
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Kevin Yang 
Local time: 21:22
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
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| All information should be available to show the whole translation process. | Jul 23, 2003 |
invguy wrote:
Else, all answers are important as parts of an iteration process that (hopefully) leads to the best solution. If you ask me, this iterative discussion process is one of the most charming and enlightening things about KudoZ. I sometimes read the exchanges just for the pleasure of it - and I would not deprive anyone of the opportunity to follow 'the full story', therefore I'm not hiding my answers.
[Edited at 2003-07-23 07:23]
invguy, Massimo Rippa, andycw, and others,
Thank you for spending time on explaining your viewpoint about the normal hiding behaviors. I am very impressed by your wholesome understanding on this matter. I do know that none of us are experts on this, and we all are learning how to use or work with the features provided by ProZ.com. By starting this discussion, I am glad to read all your opinions and had a chance to look at this matter from your perspectives. I do believe this is definitely an area that needs to be defined. So far I basically do things based on my interpretation of the norms and codes that are established by common sense, which of course can be biased. As for the abusive usage of HIDE feature, is common sense not enough? Or do we really need all the written rules and regulations for a workshop-like translation discussion room?
I am a true believer that in our translation discussion of a Kudoz question the translation process and the information associated with it are important and helpful. A good translation does require a developmental process through the discussion and interaction with the peers. It also shows how much effort you put into the given answer to a KudoZ question. I felt it was strange when I noticed someone would hide here and there, and in some cases would hide the not-so-good translation after other peer(s) posted their answers and went around post a fresh one and won the KudoZ points. Unfortunately, it seems the topic I initially posted, that is, what is the normal use of this HIDE feature, has not been sufficiently discussed. But, the direction of the discussion has been changed and start to discuss moderator’s rights to use certain administrative privileges, which now I definitely believe should be defined, too, but as a separated topic of this discussion.
Please forgive me if my English is not good enough, because English is my second language. Thank goodness, I have been able to speak poor English in good manner. Isn't that a part of its civilization? As you can see, I keep what I posted, and if I see a typo and something unclear, I revise it, but I do not feel there is any necessity to HIDE, which is also a feature in the Forum. As matter of the fact, I am very proud that I can use my English to discuss this topic with all my peers here.
Thanks!
Kevin
[Edited at 2003-07-26 00:10]
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 06:22
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
| Kevin, please stop waffling..... | Jul 23, 2003 |
....All this nonsense about "a developmental process through the discussion and interaction with the peers" is just so much waffle (and poor English like the rest of your posts) and only serves to cover your back.
The case is very clear to everyone except you.
Curiously, you answer not one of the issues put forward by others or by me - you just fudge.
"Or do we really need all the written rules and regulations for a workshop-like translation discussion room?"... See more ....All this nonsense about "a developmental process through the discussion and interaction with the peers" is just so much waffle (and poor English like the rest of your posts) and only serves to cover your back.
The case is very clear to everyone except you.
Curiously, you answer not one of the issues put forward by others or by me - you just fudge.
"Or do we really need all the written rules and regulations for a workshop-like translation discussion room?"
In your case Kevin, yes, for the simple fact your haven't grasped the basics of "interaction with peers" - Interaction does not means interference. Do you understand?
"...discuss moderator’s proper use of administrative privileges, which now I definitely believe should be defined, too, but a separated topic of this discussion."
THIS IS THE ISSUE KEVIN. You "definitely believe it should be defined" - not before time in your case. "Proper use".....from what I've seen, 99% of people think that your use of your "many administrative privileges" is unwise, foolhardy, arrogant and childish. Is this how you solve all your problems?
You definitely do need your role to be defined for you because you clearly have no idea.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS OR NOT? I would appreciate a straight answer.
"Unfortunately, it seems the topic I initially posted, that is, what is the normal use of this HIDE feature, has not been sufficiently discussed"
"Unfortunately" for you, because your arrogant antics have been exposed.
Everyone (except you) is apparently in a position to know when a feature is being abused and what would be the most adult way of addressing it. Simply do what other moderators do. Easy.
Forgive the repetition, but.....,
Henry, PLEASE, either confirm or deny what this moderator is saying
"It is one of the many administrative privileges given by ProZ.com to each moderator to make a final decision as to what is qualified to hide and what is not."
...... I believe I am not alone in thinking that this person unworthy of the trust placed in him.
I say so as someone who is definitely NOT interested in the post of "Chinese Moderator"
Saludos,
Andy
[Edited at 2003-07-23 19:25] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 06:22
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
| You don't give up, do you? | Jul 23, 2003 |
invguy wrote:
Else, all answers are important as parts of an iteration process that (hopefully) leads to the best solution. If you ask me, this iterative discussion process is one of the most charming and enlightening things about KudoZ. I sometimes read the exchanges just for the pleasure of it - and I would not deprive anyone of the opportunity to follow 'the full story', therefore I'm not hiding my answers.
Kevin: Important note. "I'm not hiding my answers". What Inv... See more invguy wrote:
Else, all answers are important as parts of an iteration process that (hopefully) leads to the best solution. If you ask me, this iterative discussion process is one of the most charming and enlightening things about KudoZ. I sometimes read the exchanges just for the pleasure of it - and I would not deprive anyone of the opportunity to follow 'the full story', therefore I'm not hiding my answers.
Kevin: Important note. "I'm not hiding my answers". What Invguy is saying is that he/she CHOOSES whether he/she wants to hide their answer or not. NOT YOU! Not that difficult to grasp, I would have thought.
So don't try to use this as justification for your actions.
"andycw was wondering if to deal with this matter publicly, "as if with the intention of "shaming" someone..." My answers is "Never and ever."
So you think that consistently and annoyingly revealing someone's answer is not public "Never and never"? -
I would have thought that doing so in front of 50,000´translators is pretty public.
But then again, I'm obviously not endowed with your wisdom.
Henry, how do you choose your moderators?
Saludos,
Andy
[Edited at 2003-07-23 20:13] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Y_Bill
Local time: 12:22
Chinese to English
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| It feels like... | Jul 23, 2003 |
I don't know all the details of this incident, but my impression is:
Every Proz member has a working cyber space, you know, with walls, a desk and a control panel on which we happen to find a "hide" button. Like a "cancel" button with all gaming machines or other machines. Of course the button is there to be used, that's why it's there in the first place. We need cancel button because we do make mistakes, even when we use the cancel button we occasionally make mistakes.
... See more I don't know all the details of this incident, but my impression is:
Every Proz member has a working cyber space, you know, with walls, a desk and a control panel on which we happen to find a "hide" button. Like a "cancel" button with all gaming machines or other machines. Of course the button is there to be used, that's why it's there in the first place. We need cancel button because we do make mistakes, even when we use the cancel button we occasionally make mistakes.
Then after an incredible process, we find there's a peephole in the wall and some guy alive is peeping through the hole!
So I understand the indignation involved. If you put a hide function there and install a peephole in the wall, the hide function has become a piece of cheese on the mousetrap tempting people to fall into the trap. Are we rats?! Anyway I'm a scared rat already.
In this case the peephole was installed by a specified person, not by the management of the whole working compound I believe. Do we have a case of "Peephole Gate"?
[Edited at 2003-07-24 13:30] ▲ Collapse
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| Good analogy, Y_Bill | Jul 23, 2003 |
You can run but you can't hide...
Y_Bill wrote:
If you put a hide function there and install a peephole in the wall, the hide function has become a piece of cheese on the mousetrap tempting people to fall into the trap. Are we rats?! Anyway I'm a scared rat already.
o we have a case of "Peephole Gate"?[/quote]
Let's hope the rats don't jump ship - the quality of debate aboard the Marie Celeste wasn't exactly stimulating...
No doubt this moderator had his reasons for keeping the "hiding" situation under such close surveillance.
Even so, I hope he now sees that it's just not important enough to justify hounding a fellow translator out of the Kudoz arena / away from Proz. (Maybe if dozens of colleagues were continually complaining to him about it, but not otherwise).
Lacking the relevant peepholes, buttons etc. myself, could I request that a passing moderator raises this whole 'intervention' issue in the elite climes of the moderators' forum?
And lets us know the outcome?
Thanking you in advance - Deborah
| | | | | Thank you Deborah | Jul 23, 2003 |
We're going to discuss all this matter about mod's buttons and about this thread among us and give you a feed back.
This thread remains in order to discuss the initial topic: what are the reasons that can justify hiding a question.
Thanks
| | | | Y_Bill
Local time: 12:22
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Is it a matter of discussion? | Jul 24, 2003 |
Claudia Iglesias wrote:
We're going to discuss all this matter about mod's buttons and about this thread among us and give you a feed back.
This thread remains in order to discuss the initial topic: what are the reasons that can justify hiding a question.
Thanks
It's a matter of etiquette and courtesy when the system provides the function: either it's presumed innocence (we are not here for an inquisition of morality, are we?);or sufficient warning should be given (This is a button of fire alarm, wrongly clicking the button will be hounded, tracked and tried). Lacking both of the above, what are you doing there?
Or do you think most of us would trade "honor and conscience" for "points"? Yes I would if every point is worth a million of your US dollars.
| | | | | the main problem: | Jul 24, 2003 |
Kevin, you wrote:
"My question is why there are so many things to hide?"
I think that's the main problem! We all are perfectly fine and don't have sleepless nights only because a ProZ member uses the "hide" function more often than the others.
Your reaction is not normal and does not entitle you to any action.
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| You're brilliant Y_Bill | Jul 24, 2003 |
Let me put my new post here first until it appears, sorry:) Is this a matter of discussion? Claudia Iglesias wrote:
We're going to discuss all this matter about mod's buttons and about this thread among us and give you a feed back.
This thread remains in order to discuss the initial topic: what are the reasons that can justify hiding a question.
Thanks
You've found a new way to answer to what hasn't been asked yet.
The only thing I wanted is to stop the discussion until we speak with Kevin. And I said we'd be back with feedback about the issue.
As my message wasn't clear, I'm locking the thread, Henry will see if he opens it later on.
Thanks for your understanding.
Claudia
[Edited at 2003-07-24 12:57]
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 21:22
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Thank you for all your attentions and opinions! | Jul 25, 2003 |
To all the translators,
Thank you for all your attentions and opinions shared with me in this discussion and by emails, debating about the normal hiding behaviors. By seeing the record-making number of visitors to these two forum folders, it confirms that this is not a small matter, and deserved to be discussed.
The positive outcomes from this discussion can be summarized as the following:
1. Regarding to the normal use of HIDE feature, for the time being... See more To all the translators,
Thank you for all your attentions and opinions shared with me in this discussion and by emails, debating about the normal hiding behaviors. By seeing the record-making number of visitors to these two forum folders, it confirms that this is not a small matter, and deserved to be discussed.
The positive outcomes from this discussion can be summarized as the following:
1. Regarding to the normal use of HIDE feature, for the time being there is no any restrictions set by the management of ProZ.com. This is because ProZ.com assumes and trusts that all translators have the judgment to use it properly.
Therefore, Betty, the involved party who was revealed herself in the later part of this discussion, should not be considered as having violated any rules or regulations. I do want to take this opportunity and sincerely apologize to Betty for bringing this matter up as an issue for discussion in the Chinese Forum without discussing with her individually first. Please forgive me if there is any stress caused to you by this discussion and my other related decisions. By reading all the related emails and messages, I realized that I should respect the answerer's decision to hide, and a one-on-one discussion with Betty could bring a much better result, because this is not a behavior found in majority translators. I will definitely be more careful in handling such matters in future. However, I do want to let everyone know that, I still believe that excessive usage of HIDE feature does not bring any benefits to other translators and the glossary.
2. In the last couple days, I had discussed about it with Henry and other mods. We reached a consensus that clearer instructions should be specified and have all mods known about how and when the administrative features should be used.
As for my part, your voices and opinions in this discussion helped me to look at this matter from your perspectives. Your viewpoints are well heard and taken. I can promise I will closely follow the new guidelines and update the info about my responsibilities. I think this is another positive outcome came out of this discussion.
Thank you for all your participation! I felt your enthusiasm and appreciate your frankness in voicing your opinions. As you may aware, all of our intentions are to help ProZ.com and for the best of this translators’ website. In the process that ProZ.com makes all the effort to update and improve itself, we all are, especially me, learning each day by working with fellow translators and with all the new features made available. Let’s all learn to respect each other and be considerate!
Have a great summer!
Kevin Yang
[Edited at 2003-07-26 01:40] ▲ Collapse
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[quote]andycw wrote:
"(and poor English like the rest of your posts)"
This kind of attack!
Do you prefer us to use either Chinese or French? You could participate also!
[Edited at 2003-07-26 01:26]
| | | | Y_Bill
Local time: 12:22
Chinese to English
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| Clarity brings everybody together again, I hope! | Jul 26, 2003 |
As I said, everybody makes mistakes. If wrongs are righted, a sense of tolerance and equality is again needed by all parties involved.
And let's not start another round of word picking and slinging.
Shall we bury the past with a hope for the better future?
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Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 06:22
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
| Hi Kevin.... | Jul 26, 2003 |
....just to say many thanks for your post.
I also believe that the vast majority of translators use this feature correctly and individual cases of misuse should be treated individually.
Thanks again...Andy.
Jean-Marc, I understand your meaning - yet there is a slight difference.
I do not claim to be able to translate into French (despite studying it for 17 years) and certainly not into Chinese! ¡Ojalá!
| | | | Zhoudan
Local time: 12:22
English to Chinese
+ ...
Y_Bill wrote:
As I said, everybody makes mistakes. If wrongs are righted, a sense of tolerance and equality is again needed by all parties involved.
And let's not start another round of word picking and slinging.
Shall we bury the past with a hope for the better future?
| | | | Chinoise
Local time: 01:22
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Many thanks to you all!!! | Jul 26, 2003 |
Kevin Yang wrote:
To all the translators,
1. Regarding to the normal use of HIDE feature, for the time being there is no any restrictions set by the management of ProZ.com. This is because ProZ.com assumes and trusts that all translators have the judgment to use it properly.
Therefore, Betty, the involved party who was revealed herself in the later part of this discussion, should not be considered as having violated any rules or regulations. I do want to take this opportunity and sincerely apologize to Betty for bringing this matter up as an issue for discussion in the Chinese Forum without discussing with her individually first. Please forgive me if there is any stress caused to you by this discussion and my other related decisions. By reading all the related emails and messages, I realized that I should respect the answerer's decision to hide, and a one-on-one discussion with Betty could bring a much better result, because this is not a behavior found in majority translators. I will definitely be more careful in handling such matters in future. However, I do want to let everyone know that, I still believe that excessive usage of HIDE feature does not bring any benefits to other translators and the glossary.
2. In the last couple days, I had discussed about it with Henry and other mods. We reached a consensus that clearer instructions should be specified and have all mods known about how and when the administrative features should be used.
Kevin Yang
[Edited at 2003-07-26 01:40]
Firstly, I would like to take this opportunity to extend my sincerest gratitude for every fellow translator's kind support and valuable input.
Secondly, I believe kevin's apology is sincere and I accept his apology; On the other hand , I hope to do better on my part in the future.
Thirdly, it is sincerely hoped that Henry will give more explicit instructions as to when and how all those administrative features should be used by moderators.
Thanks again to all my colleagues here and the respectable ProZ.com team!
Enjoy the beautiful weekend!
Kindest regards,
Betty
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