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Should the "P" symbol be for internal eyes only?
Thread poster: Paul Cohen
Aniello Scognamiglio (X)
Aniello Scognamiglio (X)  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 00:21
English to German
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The EN-15038 European Quality Standard for Translation Services: What’s Behind It? Mar 16, 2009

I hope I am allowed to post this link here:
http://www.translationdirectory.com/article472.htm
+
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_15038


 
JaneTranslates
JaneTranslates  Identity Verified
Puerto Rico
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Spanish to English
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Silent majority? Mar 16, 2009

Jussi Rosti wrote:

I just need to re-evaluate my thoughts about this community


I suspect there are lot of people who, like me, are reading these threads in consternation and have been staying out of the fray. When you re-evaluate (and that "you" is plural, "ustedes," "vous," for everyone on all sides of the controversy who has been stung, offended, hurt by strong comments), please take some time to cool off and to remember that this community is very large and varied.

IMO, most if not all the posters have made at least one valid point. But there are a lot of us out here who don't give two whoops whether the "P" is displayed or not. We just want our lovely, friendly community back!


Added later:

Natalie wrote:

That was why some postings were removed.


In case a latecomer to this thread is wondering what I'm upset about--the worst of it was in those postings that, I'm glad to say, were removed.



[Edited at 2009-03-16 16:18 GMT]


 
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
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Why are some people assuming that peer comments are not trustworthy? Mar 16, 2009

In the scientific community peer comments are highly valued method of rating papers and research. In many fields there are no other 'objective' criteria - only a handful of experts in the field are qualified to give an opinion.

In translation, it is impossible in many cases to find objective criteria for quality in translation, other than asking peers for their opinions. University degrees are granted by groups of experts and professors, some of whom are also members of this site.
... See more
In the scientific community peer comments are highly valued method of rating papers and research. In many fields there are no other 'objective' criteria - only a handful of experts in the field are qualified to give an opinion.

In translation, it is impossible in many cases to find objective criteria for quality in translation, other than asking peers for their opinions. University degrees are granted by groups of experts and professors, some of whom are also members of this site. But they do not necessarily mean the graduates are good translators.

My own qualifications are not up to professor level, and I haven't got what it takes to teach. But I do translate full time, and I am one of these 'dastardly' pros who have recommended a few (three or four) colleagues.

I would love to recommend others, but that would be unethical, because I do not know enough about their work. I have only recommended people whose translations I have seen and consider to be of high quality. I know these people act professionally, deliver on time, and so on, and I recommend them to my own clients if I think they are better qualified in particular fields than I am, or if I don't have time.

Who am I to make such judgements?
Well, in all humility, who am I to translate at all? I have done a certain amount of proof reading, and at least one agency asks me (among others) to assess work by new applicants, before starting to work with them. The agencies pay me to do the job, and I send feedback which can be sent on to the translator, explaining what I liked and did not like about the translation and why. They are free to challenge me, but never do so.

This is how the peer system works, and I deeply respect the opinions of many serious and conscientious contributors to this site. Please, folks, if you know any cases of fraud, contact site staff and give specific details.
If not, please stop making insinuations about people who work hard to improve professional standards and help others on this site. Because that is unfair and unprofessional.

And happy translating!


PS To avoid misunderstanding, I have no quarrel with the original site poster and the question at the top of this thread. It is a good question. My personal, considered answer is no, but I can see the others' points of view and respect them.



[Edited at 2009-03-16 09:12 GMT]
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Natalie
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Dear all Mar 16, 2009

I understand perfectly well that the topic is hot and important, but personal remarks as well as any legal interpretations and legal challenges to ProZ.com policies and features would lead us to nowhere. I would kindly ask everybody to avoid any comments like this.

Thank you very much,
Natalia


 
Kevin Lossner
Kevin Lossner  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 23:21
German to English
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Already done Mar 16, 2009

Henry D wrote:
Kevin Lossner wrote:
But when the issues are known - and in the aforementioned case they were made known to ProZ - I do wonder what has gone wrong.

So do I. Would you please send me specifics offline?


I have submitted a ticket as requested; you are welcome to contact me privately for details. I think I know how this one might have "slipped through the cracks", because it is a bit of an odd situation, though I can see the potential for repeats in other cases if I am right about what went wrong here. (Does that sound confusing enough? I thought the basic idea behind the P was a good one, but the actual implementation has been a bit dodgy at times, and I hope it can be "fine tuned".)


 
Margreet Logmans (X)
Margreet Logmans (X)  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 00:21
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Impressions Mar 16, 2009

Nicole Schnell wrote:

Personally, I don't care if I have a badge next to my name or not. That not having a badge might give the impression that any application of mine has been denied however is starting to irk me.



Exactly.

Eduardo López Herrero wrote:

Even if you don't join the program because of personal choice, it looks like you are a part of it and you couldn't make it into the P elite group. This is so obvious that I'd beg to be spared from having to write it again.



This is what bothers me most about this P-programme.


 
Ivette Camargo López
Ivette Camargo López  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 00:21
English to Spanish
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@ Margreet (about impressions) Mar 16, 2009

Margreet Logmans wrote:

Nicole Schnell wrote:

Personally, I don't care if I have a badge next to my name or not. That not having a badge might give the impression that any application of mine has been denied however is starting to irk me.



Exactly.

Eduardo López Herrero wrote:

Even if you don't join the program because of personal choice, it looks like you are a part of it and you couldn't make it into the P elite group. This is so obvious that I'd beg to be spared from having to write it again.



This is what bothers me most about this P-programme.


Margreet, now that you mentioned this again, I just remembered I had actually made a suggestion about this in a previous related thread (click here ).

Here is what I proposed then:

there should be some kind of reference included in our profiles where at least it is mentioned whether the profile owner has applied or not to this program, because right now it could look as if anyone who hasn't got that PRO certification icon has been rejected from the program, which is hardly the case.


Saludos,

Ivette


 
Marie-Hélène Hayles
Marie-Hélène Hayles  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:21
Italian to English
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Objection Mar 16, 2009

ICL wrote:

Margreet Logmans wrote:

Nicole Schnell wrote:

Personally, I don't care if I have a badge next to my name or not. That not having a badge might give the impression that any application of mine has been denied however is starting to irk me.



Exactly.

Eduardo López Herrero wrote:

Even if you don't join the program because of personal choice, it looks like you are a part of it and you couldn't make it into the P elite group. This is so obvious that I'd beg to be spared from having to write it again.



This is what bothers me most about this P-programme.


Margreet, now that you mentioned this again, I just remembered I had actually made a suggestion about this in a previous related thread (click here ).

Here is what I proposed then:

there should be some kind of reference included in our profiles where at least it is mentioned whether the profile owner has applied or not to this program, because right now it could look as if anyone who hasn't got that PRO certification icon has been rejected from the program, which is hardly the case.


Saludos,

Ivette


I can see an obvious objection to that suggestion - anyone who has applied and has not been accepted will hardly want this advertised (and nor should it be, for reasons of fairness), and yet if they're indicated as having applied - but haven't got that red P beside their name - the implication is self-evident.

[Edited at 2009-03-16 13:02 GMT]


 
Ivette Camargo López
Ivette Camargo López  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 00:21
English to Spanish
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@ Marie-Hélène (true, but...) Mar 16, 2009

Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:

ICL wrote:

Margreet, now that you mentioned this again, I just remembered I had actually made a suggestion about this in a previous related thread (click here ).

Here is what I proposed then:

there should be some kind of reference included in our profiles where at least it is mentioned whether the profile owner has applied or not to this program, because right now it could look as if anyone who hasn't got that PRO certification icon has been rejected from the program, which is hardly the case.


Saludos,

Ivette


I can see an obvious objection to that suggestion - anyone who has applied and has not been accepted will hardly want this advertised (and nor should it be, for reasons of fairness), and yet if they're indicated as having applied - but haven't got that red P beside their name - the implication is self-evident.


True, but it would at least look "safer" for those who choose not to apply, for whatever reasons they have. You know, like when you click the box to say that "you choose not to include your CV/resume".


 
Ali Bayraktar
Ali Bayraktar  Identity Verified
Türkiye
Member (2007)
English to Turkish
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So please provide your formula Mar 16, 2009

Natalie wrote:

I understand perfectly well that the topic is hot and important, but personal remarks as well as any legal interpretations and legal challenges to ProZ.com policies and features would lead us to nowhere. I would kindly ask everybody to avoid any comments like this.

Thank you very much,
Natalia



How can we say that this program is illegal and breaches mission statement and scope of this site?


 
Natalie
Natalie  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 00:21
Member (2002)
English to Russian
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MODERATOR
SITE LOCALIZER
This is exactly the point Mar 16, 2009

M. Ali Bayraktar wrote:

Natalie wrote:

I understand perfectly well that the topic is hot and important, but personal remarks as well as any legal interpretations and legal challenges to ProZ.com policies and features would lead us to nowhere. I would kindly ask everybody to avoid any comments like this.

Thank you very much,
Natalia



How can we say that this program is illegal and breaches mission statement and scope of this site?


Hello, Ali,

This is exactly the point: How can we say that this program is illegal and breaches mission statement and scope of this site?

That was why some postings were removed.

Natalia


 
Ali Bayraktar
Ali Bayraktar  Identity Verified
Türkiye
Member (2007)
English to Turkish
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What I mean Mar 16, 2009

Natalie wrote:

M. Ali Bayraktar wrote:

Natalie wrote:

I understand perfectly well that the topic is hot and important, but personal remarks as well as any legal interpretations and legal challenges to ProZ.com policies and features would lead us to nowhere. I would kindly ask everybody to avoid any comments like this.

Thank you very much,
Natalia



How can we say that this program is illegal and breaches mission statement and scope of this site?


Hello, Ali,

This is exactly the point: How can we say that this program is illegal and breaches mission statement and scope of this site?

That was why some postings were removed.

Natalia



I mean:

In which way then can we express that: this program is illegal and breaches mission statement and scope of this site?


 
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Should the "P" symbol be for internal eyes only?






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