| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | American English is a dialect? Thread poster: Catherine Bolton
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A Hayes (X)
Australia
Local time: 07:03
| English variety | Aug 21, 2005 |
'Variety' is the term mostly used in Linguistics in this context. But theories abound among linguists as to the appropriateness of the term --as usual.
a.
| | | | Heidi C 
Local time: 17:03
English to Spanish
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| Dialect vs variety | Aug 21, 2005 |
The difference between the terms dialect and variety is philosophical. In the field of linguistics, both terms are correct.
From what I understand (and I am coming from linguistics in Spanish), the difference between using the term "dialect" or "varity" is basically one of respect.
The connotations in describing a language as a "dialect", which is what happened to the languages of the indigenous peoples (nahuatl, mayan, etc.) are negative: a dialect would seem to be so... See more The difference between the terms dialect and variety is philosophical. In the field of linguistics, both terms are correct.
From what I understand (and I am coming from linguistics in Spanish), the difference between using the term "dialect" or "varity" is basically one of respect.
The connotations in describing a language as a "dialect", which is what happened to the languages of the indigenous peoples (nahuatl, mayan, etc.) are negative: a dialect would seem to be something that does not qualify to be considered a language.
The same happens when you speak of the different regional varieties of a language. Here you are just discussing the differences between American and British English. Imagine what happens with a language like Spanish, which is spoken in so many countries and has so many regional varieties!!!
If you consider the varieties of Spanish as dialects, are you also considering Spanish from Spain as a dialect, or is that the "language" of which all these other "versions" are its dialects?
I do believe that you really simplify all the discussion if all these variaties are called, as has been proposed in Spanish "variantes regionales", which in English would be geographical or regional variants or variations or varieties
well, that's my two pesos...
Heidi
[Edited at 2005-08-21 02:57]
[Edited at 2005-08-21 02:57] ▲ Collapse
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Michele Fauble wrote:
This use of the term 'dialect' is in accordance with its use in Linguistics (the scientific study of language). All languages are composed of dialects, one of which usually has come to be accepted as the standard (although sometimes there is more than one standard). It is this standard dialect that is considered the language by the average person, who then calls all the other variants "dialects". But again, this is the usage of the man/woman in the street. The scientific concept of dialect is a very useful one in Linguistics, and as language professionals one with which we should be both familiar and comfortable.
Michele Fauble
[Edited at 2005-08-20 22:50]
Finally someone who makes sense! I was beginning to think I had read wrong or maybe I was too cross-eyed already that I couldn't see straight.
The term "dialect" is indeed the correct one, from the point of view of Linguistics, we should all be familiar with it!
| | | | BelkisDV
United States
Local time: 17:03
Spanish to English
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| Different markets... | Aug 21, 2005 |
I welcome the differentiation between American and British English just as I do for all varieties of Spanish spoken in Latin America (just to speak of my language pairs).
Both potential clients and translators would benefit because while the first is able to easily search for an expert in the market they need, the other is familiar with the terminology required.
So I see it as a positive and pleasantly surprising state-of-the-art tool in the world of translation. We've... See more I welcome the differentiation between American and British English just as I do for all varieties of Spanish spoken in Latin America (just to speak of my language pairs).
Both potential clients and translators would benefit because while the first is able to easily search for an expert in the market they need, the other is familiar with the terminology required.
So I see it as a positive and pleasantly surprising state-of-the-art tool in the world of translation. We've come a long way from when I first started as a freelancer
Cheers! ▲ Collapse
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BelkisDV
United States
Local time: 17:03
Spanish to English
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| The relationship between idiolects, dialects and language | Aug 21, 2005 |
Maria Teresa Taylor Oliver wrote: Michele Fauble wrote:
This use of the term 'dialect' is in accordance with its use in Linguistics (the scientific study of language). All languages are composed of dialects, one of which usually has come to be accepted as the standard.
[Edited at 2005-08-20 22:50] Finally someone who makes sense! I was beginning to think I had read wrong or maybe I was too cross-eyed already that I couldn't see straight. The term "dialect" is indeed the correct one, from the point of view of Linguistics, we should all be familiar with it!
Yes it's the correct one. In my translation classes I learned that we each have our own idiolect, the sum of our idiolects results in the dialect, the sum of the dialects results in language.
| | | | | We're forgetting about the asker | Aug 21, 2005 |
Terry Gilman wrote:
I agree that it would be a shame to cordon off BrE and AmE in the Kudoz.
Many comments like this have come up in this thread. I think we're actually starting to forget the initial purpose of Kudoz - for the asker to get an answer to their question. Surely, this differentiation will only improve the applicability of answers to a given asker's problem. If someone needs an American English term, our fascinating discussion about a bunch of UK English terms is not likely to be very helpful. Giving askers the _option_ to "pigeonhole their questions in advance" is exactly what is needed in this respect.
I think the differences between the two are certainly substantial enough, especially so in certain fields. For example, for me (a UK native speaker) an American newspaper looks like someone was writing short-hand...where are the "ofs", "as", "ons" and so on?
"A couple small changes were made Wednesday" - perfectly acceptable in a US newspaper, totally unacceptable in a UK one.
As for the original point of the thread, I think it would have been a little better to simply put "UK English", "US English" and let everyone decide if American English is a dialect for themselves
| | | | BelkisDV
United States
Local time: 17:03
Spanish to English
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[quote]Konstantin Kisin wrote:
Terry Gilman wrote: I think the differences between the two are certainly substantial enough, especially so in certain fields. For example, for me (a UK native speaker) an American newspaper looks like someone was writing short-hand...where are the "ofs", "as", "ons" and so on? "A couple small changes were made Wednesday" - perfectly acceptable in a US newspaper, totally unacceptable in a UK one. As for the original point of the thread, I think it would have been a little better to simply put "UK English", "US English" and let everyone decide if American English is a dialect for themselves
The first couple of paragraphs are about cultural differences, that is what equivalencies are for, translation is not just about linguistic equivalencies, but also cultural ones as we all know.
The last point however, is not for anyone to decide since it has been decided for us: the sum of the idiolects = dialect
the sum of the dialects = language.
It is important to understand the idiolect's meaning and influence in the dialect.
Cheers.
| | | | Jeff Allen
France
Local time: 23:03
Multiplelanguages
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| American English is a dialect composed of subdialects, but call it variety for general public | Aug 21, 2005 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
This use of the term 'dialect' is in accordance with its use in Linguistics (the scientific study of language). All languages are composed of dialects, one of which usually has come to be accepted as the standard (although sometimes there is more than one standard). It is this standard dialect that is considered the language by the average person, who then calls all the other variants "dialects". But again, this is the usage of the man/woman in the street. The scientific concept of dialect is a very useful one in Linguistics, and as language professionals one with which we should be both familiar and comfortable.
Maria Teresa Taylor Oliver wrote:
Finally someone who makes sense! .... The term "dialect" is indeed the correct one, from the point of view of Linguistics, we should all be familiar with it!
See my previous definitions of idiolect, patois, dialect and language at:
http://www.proz.com/post/227654#227654
As has been said elsewhere in the past, the concepts of idiolect, patois and dialect are all lexically and phonologically measurable. The words dialect and language are ambiguous (http://linguistlist.org/issues/8/8-49.html#1) and some people even go so far as to state that "language" is simply a dialect with an army (http://linguistlist.org/issues/8/8-73.html#1).
There are many recognized dialects in American English. It just depends how you compare and combine the isoglosses on the dialect atlas. See the links below:
A Dialect Map of American English
http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US1/REF/dial-map.html
http://ccms.ntu.edu.tw/~karchung/intro%20page%2026.htm
American Dialect Society
http://www.americandialect.org/
http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/AmDialhome.html
Varieties of English
http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~lsp/
Harvard Survey of North American Dialects
http://cfprod01.imt.uwm.edu/Dept/FLL/linguistics/dialect/
English Accents and Dialects
http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/collections/dialects/
and for French:
Atlas linguistique et ethnographique de la France
http://www.cnrseditions.fr/Sources/Liste_Collec.asp?Cle=Atlas%20linguistique%20et%20ethnographique%20de%20la%20France
Atlas linguistique et ethnographique de la France : Jura et Alpes du Nord (franco-provençal central)
http://www.languesdefrance.com/HTML/FrancoProvencal/rechercher.php?rub=fiche_livre&id_livre=176&langue=Francoprovençal
Centre de Dialectologie de Grenoble
http://www.u-grenoble3.fr/dialecto/ALIR/alir.htm
The issue we have is that one must always be very careful when using the word "dialect" with any given audience. In a linguistics class, I can use it to describe the groupings of patois in separate regions, or I can use the word as well when conducting an in-vehicle speech data collection project (http://www.lrec-conf.org/lrec2000/www.xanthi.ilsp.gr/lrec/conference/papers-171.htm).
Yet, if I'm sitting across from a person coming from Western Brittany of France or southern France and say that their Breton or their Occitan are dialects, I might risk getting my throat slashed.
Although the word "dialect" is technically accurate, when I talk with the general public, I tend to use the word "variety" to explain the differences between American English, British Engish, Quebec French, Swiss French, Haitian Creole, Jamaican Creole, Martinican Creole, Abidijan Pidgin French, etc....
Jeff
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Jeff Allen, Ph.D.
Paris, France
http://www.geocities.com/creolelangs/
[Edited at 2006-02-14 23:27]
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Jeff Allen
France
Local time: 23:03
Multiplelanguages
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| Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 14:03
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| Dialect as a scientific concept | Aug 21, 2005 |
Heidi:) wrote:
... the difference between using the term "dialect" or "varity" is basically one of respect.
The non-scientific use of the terms 'dialect' (negative connotation) and 'language' (worthy of respect) is exactly what modern linguistics, with its use of the term 'dialect' to refer to any geographical variety, including the prestige dialect, makes a point to avoid. Linguistics is a science, and as a science it is in the business of objective description, not making value judgments about which language variety is worthy of respect and of the designation "language". (Such value judgments have their basis in historical, social, and political developments, not linguistics.)
It seems that many translators are unfamiliar with this use of the term 'dialect' and instead operate with a "man in the street" concept contrasting 'language' with 'dialect', and for this reason seem to prefer the term 'language variety', (which, strictly speaking, includes not only 'dialect' but also 'sociolect' and 'idiolect'.
Michele Fauble
[Edited at 2005-08-21 08:58]
[Edited at 2005-08-23 21:24]
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 23:03
German to English
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| "Variety" is the spice of life | Aug 21, 2005 |
As for the original point of the thread, I think it would have been a little better to simply put "UK English", "US English" and let everyone decide if American English is a dialect for themselves
True, but the problem is that the word "dialect" is currently used by the ProZ system not just for UK and US English but for many other languages (e.g. German vs. Swiss German), so all these would have to be changed individually, which may be difficult from a programming point of view.
Let's use "variety" and leave it at that
All the best
Ian
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 00:03
Member (2004)
English to Russian
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| A quote from `Oxford Guide to World English' | Aug 21, 2005 |
I just want to quote McArthur's `Oxford Guide to World English':
"To avoid difficulties and the social judgements that go with them, language scholars have in recent decades used the term variety to label a subdivision within a language. Varieties may relate to place or community (as with Indian English and two of its subvarieties, Anglo-Indian English and Gujarati English), to uses (as with legal English and advertising English), and to com... See more I just want to quote McArthur's `Oxford Guide to World English':
"To avoid difficulties and the social judgements that go with them, language scholars have in recent decades used the term variety to label a subdivision within a language. Varieties may relate to place or community (as with Indian English and two of its subvarieties, Anglo-Indian English and Gujarati English), to uses (as with legal English and advertising English), and to combinations of the two (as with British advertising English and American advertising English). It has not been easy, however, to apply the term variety directly to vernaculars long associated with the word dialct; it is not (or at least not yet), for example, usual to refer to Yorkshire dialect as the Yorkshire variety (of English in England), although the phrase is accurate and appropriate. Even the unusual phrase Yorkshire English may make sense, say, when contrasted with London English, a range of speech that is manifestly no longer amenable to the term `dialect' (if indeed it ever was). In the case of Yorkshire, however, affection and respect for the variety is so strong that the usage Yorkshire dialect tends to escape the long-established negative implications of the term dialect in England and elsewhere.
In recent years, variety has proved to be a fairly safe term, allowing language scholars to avoid being too specific about kinds of speech and usage on occassions when being specific is not necessary and/or when there is a risk of being charged with discrimination against a group by calling its usage `a dialect'. The negative baggage that attaches to this term in English is greater than any occasional positive connotations it may have. We can consider here the contrast between the phrases speakers of dialects and speakers of the standard language. Historically, varieties labelled as dialects have tended to retreat in the face of the standard, or manage to survive as `working-class' or `rural' usage with a kind of subversive counter-prestige.
In addition, the terms dialect and accent are commonly used as rough synonyms, often in ways that arouse apprehension and/or resentment. In social and technical terms, dialect has always meant more than a difference of pronunciation; it covers speech, grammar, vocabulary, and idiom, but even clinically the term may jar on the ear. To say, for example, that the Queen of England speaks a `prestige dialect', as some scholars have done, is for many people a contradiction in terms, and for quite a few is a slur on both the monarch and her usage - or even on dialect.
All in all, the use of variety allows more to be said with fewer risks. Most importantly, however, the term dialect fails when discussing English as a world language..." ▲ Collapse
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| wha? me no speakie | Aug 21, 2005 |
Michele Fauble wrote:
It is this standard dialect that is considered the language by the average person, who then calls all the other variants "dialects".
Hi Michele,
But don't you think this very act is rife with political connotations? Aren't we, as language pros, supposed to reject pedestrian notions of language? This could be debased to crude generalizations like "X English is a dialect of UK English" (hence, unwittingly, inferior). The political undercurrent triggered by the word 'dialect' cannot be denied. We need a neutral term and 'variant' or 'variety' suits our purposes well without coming with the excess baggage of extra-linguistic judgments.
I'm sure if you told a Quebecois that the lingo he's speaking is "non-standard", simply a dialect tangential from standard French, you'd get a pie in the face. Or in this case, poutine.
And we've all heard the UK vs US English jokes.
Marcus
(non-standard speaker of off-mainstream language variants trying his best to sound 'standard' and failing miserably)
| | | | NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 17:03
Member (2002)
French to English
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MODERATOR | I welcome a chance to request Quebec French | Aug 21, 2005 |
Marcus Malabad wrote:
I'm sure if you told a Quebecois that the lingo he's speaking is "non-standard", simply a dialect tangential from standard French, you'd get a pie in the face. Or in this case, poutine.
Marcus
I for one like this filter and I agree with Ian that it hsould be a regional label, not a dialect one.
Once in response to a question of mine, a member living in France stated that Québecois French is not a language, but a patois, and 'you can say anything', whatever that means.
This comment insulted me, of course, and I would prefer now to direct my questions to those who speak Québec French, thereby avoiding useless non-answers such as the one quoted above.
Nancy
| | | | | exactly Nancy | Aug 21, 2005 |
NancyLynn wrote:
This comment insulted me, of course, and I would prefer now to direct my questions to those who speak Québec French, thereby avoiding useless non-answers such as the one quoted above.
Nancy
This is exactly my point - it's all about helping the asker.
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