| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Globalization and the Internet: are they driving the rates down? Thread poster: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
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| Giovanni + Henry's "wallet" | Nov 14, 2001 |
Quote:
On 2001-11-14 02:36, guarnieri wrote:
Henry, you might not be making any money out of the job system but the bids attract a big number of translators and agencies to the site, which means the site becomes more and more successful and... I don\'t know if you make any money out of the site at all, but I think that you do, otherwise Proz would be a charity.
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I admit that sometimes my comments are a
... See more Quote:
On 2001-11-14 02:36, guarnieri wrote:
Henry, you might not be making any money out of the job system but the bids attract a big number of translators and agencies to the site, which means the site becomes more and more successful and... I don\'t know if you make any money out of the site at all, but I think that you do, otherwise Proz would be a charity.
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I admit that sometimes my comments are a bit \"direct\" and provocative... I just don\'t like the bidding option for the agencies, that\'s all...
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Your answers to my questions are getting shorter and shorter. I sense you are a bit fed-up with provocations and misinformation. I\'ll shut up for a bit.
Giovanni
Hi Giovanni & everybody,
I don\'t know about Henry, and he certainly doesn\'t need anybody to defend him, but I, for one, am more than a bit fed up with comments like yours. It\'s a good thing you realize they are provocative: \"if the thought of losing the revenue is too painful for Henry\" doesn\'t sound good at all. Maybe the key is your other comment, \"I don\'t know if you make any money out of the site at all, but I think that you do\". I think it would help if you changed the focus here and thought of all the money WE make out of ProZ. I haven\'t upgraded to Platinum yet, and I haven\'t got any jobs through ProZ, but I\'ve found excellent colleagues to share work with, when I could have lost a client if I had been alone to deal with an excessive work load. I\'ve also delivered better translations thanks to all the help I found at the glossaries and the KudoZ system. Now that is making money, isn\'t it?
I really, really hope Henry is making lots of money out of this. He deserves it because of his talent, intelligence, creativity, dedication.
Forgive me if I’m being too “direct and provocative” myself, and I certainly don’t mean to be rude. I just feel the need to say what I think about this, and I’ll be happy if it helps change anyone’s attitude (in all fairness, Giovanni, your comment may have been the last straw, I’ve seen a lot of ungrateful comments at these forums).
On a completely different note, I agree that public bids drive rates down, and I’d be happy to see them go.
Andrea Bullrich
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Quote:
On 2001-11-10 06:08, Dyran wrote:
It all sounds very doable, but I would still like to know what Henry thinks before getting my hopes too high.
Personally, I think 8 cents as the lower limit sounds quite reasonable.
Hello,
If I don\'t work for at least 0.10 euros/word (and event then it has to be on a large volume) then I loose money. 8 cents is... See more Quote:
On 2001-11-10 06:08, Dyran wrote:
It all sounds very doable, but I would still like to know what Henry thinks before getting my hopes too high.
Personally, I think 8 cents as the lower limit sounds quite reasonable.
Hello,
If I don\'t work for at least 0.10 euros/word (and event then it has to be on a large volume) then I loose money. 8 cents is a suicide rate for those based in France. Apparently, those who are based in Spain have much cheaper compulsory contributions to pay over to the state. The services of translators based in Spain are consequently much cheaper for a client to use than those in France. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dyran Altenburg (X) 
United States
Local time: 03:37
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Just to clarify | Nov 14, 2001 |
The values we have been talking about are in US dollars, not euros.
I mentioned 8 cents because you can find accredited and experienced translators here in the US who charge that amount.
Personally, what I consider when quoting a job is how much money per hour do I need to make to live comfortably.
That might mean taking some jobs at US$0.12 and others at US$0.16. Perhaps giving a discount to a client who pays on delivery, or chargin... See more The values we have been talking about are in US dollars, not euros.
I mentioned 8 cents because you can find accredited and experienced translators here in the US who charge that amount.
Personally, what I consider when quoting a job is how much money per hour do I need to make to live comfortably.
That might mean taking some jobs at US$0.12 and others at US$0.16. Perhaps giving a discount to a client who pays on delivery, or charging more for printed originals or excel files.
Your mileage may vary.
Quote:
If I don\'t work for at least 0.10 euros/word (and event then it has to be on a large volume) then I loose money. 8 cents is a suicide rate for those based in France.
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| | | | | Asides: (1) ProZ.com is a business. (2) Your postings are welcome, Giovanni. | Nov 14, 2001 |
First, a few asides:
- Provocative comments are welcome. No need to lay low, Giovanni.
One thing, though. As a Platinum member, you now have the power to speak directly to the community. Please don\'t speculate on factual matters--misunderstandings result.
- Let me be clear: ProZ.com is a business. There are two full-time employees, a few contractors, and one investor (me). ProZ.com has been \"in the black\" for just over a year (I a... See more First, a few asides:
- Provocative comments are welcome. No need to lay low, Giovanni.
One thing, though. As a Platinum member, you now have the power to speak directly to the community. Please don\'t speculate on factual matters--misunderstandings result.
- Let me be clear: ProZ.com is a business. There are two full-time employees, a few contractors, and one investor (me). ProZ.com has been \"in the black\" for just over a year (I am very frugal), and the objective is to continually make the service better and more profitable. ▲ Collapse
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| The goal is to boost *hourly income*, not word rates | Nov 14, 2001 |
I have a proposal related to the semantics of our discussion here:
We should talk about boosting \"hourly income\", not boosting per-word rates.
My reasoning:
If your average rate is 10 cents/word, it makes perfect sense to charge 15 cts/wd for material that it will take you 50% more time to complete. It also makes perfect sense to do a job for 7 cents per word it will take you 30% less time than average to finish.
<... See more I have a proposal related to the semantics of our discussion here:
We should talk about boosting \"hourly income\", not boosting per-word rates.
My reasoning:
If your average rate is 10 cents/word, it makes perfect sense to charge 15 cts/wd for material that it will take you 50% more time to complete. It also makes perfect sense to do a job for 7 cents per word it will take you 30% less time than average to finish.
Focusing strictly on word rates is detrimental to our purposes. It may turn out that to boost hourly income, we will need to boost word rates. But there is also a possibility that as we continue to boost productivity (with tools, collaboration, etc.), it may be to our advantage to reduce per-word rates. In that this would increase job flow, we would benefit along with consumers.
Remember, there are many, many potential clients out there who would like to use translation services, but cannot afford them. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I am open to making changes | Nov 14, 2001 |
As for my willingness to make changes to the jobs systems, I am open to all proposals. The current system was the first pass, and it is far from perfect. I would even consider scrapping open bidding if it will serve our interests to do so.
Two views I do hold:
- Hidden jobs are great. These are the jobs passed when an outsourcer contacts a member directly after having found the member\'s profile in a search. I would like to further encourage this method of ... See more As for my willingness to make changes to the jobs systems, I am open to all proposals. The current system was the first pass, and it is far from perfect. I would even consider scrapping open bidding if it will serve our interests to do so.
Two views I do hold:
- Hidden jobs are great. These are the jobs passed when an outsourcer contacts a member directly after having found the member\'s profile in a search. I would like to further encourage this method of job matching.
- We need more metrics. A good translator does not yet have enough ways to to justify a higher price by demonstrating that she is good.
Setting a minimum word rate may be a step that we eventually decide to take. But I think the discussion is premature, pending metrics to describe what is being priced.
In other words, when we say the price is 8 cents per word, what exactly is it that is being sold? Is it (1) \"translation, no guarantees\", (2) \"translation by a prequalified translator\", or (3) \"grade A translation, guaranteed.\" If it is the first, I am not in favor of setting a minimum rate. If it is the second or third, I am interested. The third is most appealing to me.
After taking care of some pressing matters (login difficulties, etc.), I hope to turn our development attentions to the job system. In short, at the moment, I am all ears. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 03:37
German to English
+ ...
| Hours vs. words | Nov 14, 2001 |
Yes, that makes good sense. But basically, that is what I do on a regular basis. I set my word rates based on my bottomline. How much do I need to earn per day/week/month to live comfortably?
Just a word of warning, though: we should use such \"hourly\" considerations only for the purposes of setting our word rates; we should never start charging for translations by the hour - this would result in a series of problems (just think of an agency that will reject your invoice fo... See more Yes, that makes good sense. But basically, that is what I do on a regular basis. I set my word rates based on my bottomline. How much do I need to earn per day/week/month to live comfortably?
Just a word of warning, though: we should use such \"hourly\" considerations only for the purposes of setting our word rates; we should never start charging for translations by the hour - this would result in a series of problems (just think of an agency that will reject your invoice for 8 hours of work, because they say the translation should have taken only 6 hours to complete; this would open a whole new Pandora\'s box - in addition to the existing payment problems that we all encounter with an increasing number of agencies).
Every translation must be priced differently (at least, that\'s what I do), but the estimate and invoice sent to the client must be based on the word count (or number of standard lines). By the same token, the minimum threshold to be defined for the ProZ bidding process should also be based on a word rate (and US$0.08 makes perfect sense - if there is any doubt, let\'s do a survey and find out). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Telesforo Fernandez (X)
Local time: 13:07
English to Spanish
+ ...
| But how to go about it | Nov 16, 2001 |
Werner, this hourly basis charges looks apparently ok.
Bt when we quote we do not know the complexity of the document.
Unless one sees the whole document it is not possible to quote on hourly basis.
Job posters may always tell you that the text is very simple and it wouldn\'t take longer to finish the job.
But eventually, the text may turn out to be very complex requiring longer periods of time.
... See more Werner, this hourly basis charges looks apparently ok.
Bt when we quote we do not know the complexity of the document.
Unless one sees the whole document it is not possible to quote on hourly basis.
Job posters may always tell you that the text is very simple and it wouldn\'t take longer to finish the job.
But eventually, the text may turn out to be very complex requiring longer periods of time.
This may lead to unnecessary dispute with the job poster.
But why should we not stick to per word rate?
It looks as if we want to introduce all sorts of innovations, but are shy to increase the word rate.
There are suggestions of all kinds to boost income BUT no rate fixing.
It looks nice to share members\' terminology and glossaries - and one has to pay for it.
But how reliable are these personal glossaries? can one use them - just like cut and paste - when you are translating?
I think one would run the risk of incorrect translations.
It would be not so correct to use even one\'s own glossaries before checking them in the context of the text you are translating.
Context is of key importance.
Sharing glossaries among members against payment does not seem right.
Because it would be difficult to guarantee their accuracy.
Personal terminology data banks should always be free of cost for reference.
If you are paid - even a small fee- for using the personal data banks, you could also be sued for incorrect entries in your terminology bank or your glossaries.
So , per word rate seems to be more feasible, in contrast to per hour basis.
One can quoote per hour basis only when one has the full document. And who would show you the full document, before the job is awarded to you?
There are many people who want to get translations done, but cannot afford them because of rates.It is just like wanting to have surgery done - but can\'t afford it. So they are asking top surgeons to do surgery at quacks\' rates.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-11-16 05:15 ]
[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-11-16 05:26 ]
[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-11-16 05:29 ] ▲ Collapse
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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 03:37
German to English
+ ...
That\'s exactly what I said before: hourly rates will always result in disputes (one of the main reasons why I stopped offering proofreading/editing services).
Re sharing of glossaries, translation memories, etc.: I don\'t like the idea at all. I would never buy someone else\'s TM because you would not know what you are getting (apart from the fact that, in my view, TM does not work anyway because each translation is unique, so even your own TM will not work 100% either). I ... See more That\'s exactly what I said before: hourly rates will always result in disputes (one of the main reasons why I stopped offering proofreading/editing services).
Re sharing of glossaries, translation memories, etc.: I don\'t like the idea at all. I would never buy someone else\'s TM because you would not know what you are getting (apart from the fact that, in my view, TM does not work anyway because each translation is unique, so even your own TM will not work 100% either). I mean, if ProZ wants to offer this kind of service, that\'s fine, but I would not use it.
Coming back to rates: we should stick to word and/or line counts - these are the most reliable measures for pricing a translation. Of course, rates need to be flexible (within a margin) to allow for different types of assignments (subject matter, volume, turnaround time, formatting, etc.).
From what I have seen, agencies that want you to charge translations by the hour are agencies that are not very trustworthy because that way they have more possibilities of cheating you out of your money (and they invariably will). ▲ Collapse
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Dear Colleagues,
My observation is that frequently the job posters do not provide any information. That puts translators at a distinct disasvantage, particularly taking into account the intention of the site to facilitate direct contact.
Henry may be right - maybe we need more \"metrics\" before we can set up a minimum price - even though I personally think that we could set up a reasonable minimum price on assumption that this site offers the services of qualifie... See more Dear Colleagues,
My observation is that frequently the job posters do not provide any information. That puts translators at a distinct disasvantage, particularly taking into account the intention of the site to facilitate direct contact.
Henry may be right - maybe we need more \"metrics\" before we can set up a minimum price - even though I personally think that we could set up a reasonable minimum price on assumption that this site offers the services of qualified professionals - and educate the service seekers as to what they are paying for. But anyway, what we need absolutely is to make it required from job posters to provide direct contact information, including a valid phone number, in the job request.
HAPPY Thanksgiving to everyone,
Alexandra ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Thoughts for change | Dec 22, 2001 |
Dear Colleagues,
At the recent Pow-Wow in Boston, we fell to discussing the ProZ auction. We all agreed that it should be changed.
The ProZ auction, as it is currently structured, encourages cheap prices for companies who are requesting translations, and actually harms the translators by driving the price of our work down. It is being sold as capitalism, and it is capitalism of a sort, but its structure is such that it positively harms the people – u... See more Dear Colleagues,
At the recent Pow-Wow in Boston, we fell to discussing the ProZ auction. We all agreed that it should be changed.
The ProZ auction, as it is currently structured, encourages cheap prices for companies who are requesting translations, and actually harms the translators by driving the price of our work down. It is being sold as capitalism, and it is capitalism of a sort, but its structure is such that it positively harms the people – us translators – whom the site is purported to benefit. Moreover, it is not even clear that it benefits the companies getting translations, as it implies that all translators are the same, and the sole difference is price. We all know that this is not true.
A normal auction is structured so that the good being sold – in this case, the translation work – is sold for the highest price the paying public is willing to spend. For example, in the Southern United States before 1865, slaves were sold to the highest bidder, based on their qualifications and the quality of the work they would be able to do. We do not even have this situation. In the current ProZ bidding process, all translators are lumped together, so that the only factor separating them is how much they charge, regardless of experience and talent. This structure is damaging to everyone, because companies will suppose that they are getting a translation cheaply, whereas they frequently are just getting a poor translation. The process as it is now does not distinguish between those who translate well and those who translate badly. It may be capitalism, but it’s a lousy way to do business.
It may be that the simplest way to solve this problem would be to just delete the auction from the site. As it is now, the auction is harmful to both translators and companies, and I recommend that we simply boycott it.
It would be possible to make the process workable, though, in a couple of ways:
1. One way to make the auction work would be a process of establishing a qualifications rating for translators. No one who was not rated would be able to participate in the auction. Rating, say on a scale of 1-10 worst to best, would be done by a jury of one’s fellow translators, based on a sample of 50-100 words. Separate technical ratings might also be established. Translators would pay a fee to be rated. Companies would look at the ratings along with prices, so they would at least get an idea of quality.
2. Another way would be to establish the auction as a cooperative, with all translators as members. Each translator would have an established schedule of rates along with his/her rating. Companies would then look at translators’ ratings and fees, and bid for the services of those who fit their needs and budget, as in a normal auction.
Other ways could easily be devised. The problem has been that there has not been enough creative thought put into how to structure the system to meet everyone’s needs. We are all highly qualified, and the stakes are very high for all of us. This is early days for translators on the Internet, and what we do could establish a precedent for a long time to come. Are we willing to work in our own best interests?
Sincerely,
Alexandra & Phillip Tussing
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| | | | | Notice: open bidding has been 'scrapped' | Dec 22, 2001 |
Open bidding is no longer available as an option to outsourcers.
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