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KudoZ is NOT a free translation service
Thread poster: Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Carole Muller
Carole Muller
Denmark
Local time: 07:49
English to French
+ ...
the value of solidarity / the value of cheating Dec 11, 2001

Dear All,



As you know I have been following your various postings on the subject and related issues.



Again I\'d like to throw in my 2 cents as an economist: it\'s being proven in all contexts of society that solidarity as such only exists among people who (A) either live by it as a value integrated into their system without ever questioning it or (B)the extent to which they exert solidarity in practice - meaning each time they\'re tempted by the Devil-is... See more
Dear All,



As you know I have been following your various postings on the subject and related issues.



Again I\'d like to throw in my 2 cents as an economist: it\'s being proven in all contexts of society that solidarity as such only exists among people who (A) either live by it as a value integrated into their system without ever questioning it or (B)the extent to which they exert solidarity in practice - meaning each time they\'re tempted by the Devil-is relative to the gain they otherwise might achieve from cheating.



No kidding: not only are there theories validated by data, but it\'s a vast,important domain of proven pratice. Think of anytime some economist is assisting some politician devise tax systems, co-payment for health or whatever services, fines imposed on polluting manufactures ...



That\'s why -with all respects Werner-solidarity works out in a group only when all group members belong to (A): Anything else is introducing \"le loup dans la bergerie\" allowing the devil to come in and will stop working as soon as the B-person (the majority) deviates from the path of the righteous. I\'d like to think of myself as an A, but honestly I am(was) also being regarded by friends and colleages as out of the ordinary candid, which I try to compensate by the approach my professional domain dictates: the law of economics and the Machiavellian techniques of governing, giving the following:



The Kudoz problem as I see it -the abuse- originates from the glossary, not the points. Points in themselves are not the issue, I believe. Personally I got a nice little job when I had NO POINTS whatsoever and I wasn\'t even a paying member. An agency needed a particular job and I was even able to get my rates, no bargain. Since I became a paying member and accumulated points: nothing, total desert in sight....



But the value of the site to the site owners (what\'s make people register on the demand side of the translation markets) is THE GLOSSARY. It\'s very valuable. It accumulates over the years the work of MANY of YOU. It can be consulted etc... but those of us that believe we are really good, do not look up in the glossary. We have our own glossaries or we have our own primary sources of information.We may consult with other through the Kudoz questions, but the issue remains, what do we choose when we get the answers.



Anybody who needs an entire problem translated is of course not able to do it himself, and I honestly don\'t see the deviant running for points doing it achieves to destroy the market for us: we\'re looking for better jobs aren\'t we?



But: the asker and the replier are not entirely clean, that\'s for sure. So what\'s the difference between those that are not showing solidarity and those that ask for it?



The rates they take, what they need to do to keep these rates and the rates the others take.



BOYCOTT Kudoz entirely, if you are feeling abused, but it won\'t help, unless all of those that feel they can anwer a Kudoz question really well choose to do it -ALL In the same time. But another major requirement for it to work, is that something to that effect gets posted somewhere. Where? On proz?

REGARD THE POINTS as time lost, not invested in shining up your profile, or as used for getting acquainted with other translators, those that react and answer too and THEIR COMMENTS ( very interesting)and the Askers.



WHO are the ASkers? If they\'re anonymous or unkown to you (i.e. you haven\' seen them answering questions too), consider whether you\'ll feel abused answering.



What\'s the difference? THAT\'S the difference with the others, those that do not know to research a topic and find the most recent wordings/do not know to use a dictionnary-not even those on line and /feel they\'re endowed with such language aptitudes that they need neither formal training nor tools.



The mistake of proz are many, but I don\'t feel like posting it here, that\'s why I had invited those of you to mail me and receive a paper later.



AGAIN, ON THE BRIGHT SIDE:

GLOSSARY:I wouldn\'t in my life use the glossary for anything, professional or hobby. I\'ve seen what I needed to see to know enough not to do it.Breath.

POINTS: not such a tool for preferential treatment as I view it.

STANDING OUT WHEN BIDDING: obviously in certain language pairs you can\'t really stand out on proz in the bidding. That\'s because there are certain procedural mistakes in the bidding. If you\'re really qualified, don\'t expect the bidding to reveal that to the client. The bidding was not designed for that.

STANDING OUT IN OTHER WAYS: points is an illusion, I believe. It\'s just to be regarded as a fun but not lucrative activity. Only the personal page and the search facilities (language pairs) are to be regarded as worth being online here, + maybe, the job listings (big doubts) but certainly the contact to other translators and what may come out of it.

SOLIDARITY: I read a few days ago that in a survey of US residents, it came out that 91,x % were lying daily to achieve advantages of different kinds. Human Resources experts in France and in other countries stated in a big consultant study that about 1 out of 3 CV\'s is made up...for important as well as routine jobs. There are now entire new businesses opening shop in the domain of \"checking CV\'s of applicants\".It surely must be applicable elsewhere with similar frequency rates.

SOLIDARITY REVIEWED: that\'s what I am trying to develop in my paper and that\'s the subject of ongoing research and contacts with some of you.

CHEATERS: have always existed, will always exist. There are mechanisms to reveal them and there are also markets for them (certain clients like bad quality product for a various range of absolutely sane reasons)



ABOUT THE PROZ BUSINESS MODEL: if the interests of the translators paying for the site are not being taken care of, the site will die or will eventually feature translators that have no interests to defend.



TELESFORO OPENED MY EYES and has a point. If the site is a listing conducting an auction and therefore only is a listing, it might be, that the explanation is simply,that the site income derived from paying translators is NOT substantial(something we all keep assuming)and that paying translator members (i.e. the \"pro\"s) are not important.. and accordingly that we are just whining children whose interest proz has no time defending (promoting maybe, but not defending)



Look around, see the banners swaying in the wind and on the web.




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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 01:49
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Reply to Carole Dec 11, 2001

Great exposé!



I agree with you: that particular KudoZ incident was anything but \"clean\".



Collecting points is just a game - I don\'t discount the fact that some colleagues get noticed in the process of answering questions, but a serious client or agency will never take KudoZ points into consideration.



Quite right, Carole: if ProZ does not do anything to prevent such abuse (from \"within\", mind you), more and more people will be ... See more
Great exposé!



I agree with you: that particular KudoZ incident was anything but \"clean\".



Collecting points is just a game - I don\'t discount the fact that some colleagues get noticed in the process of answering questions, but a serious client or agency will never take KudoZ points into consideration.



Quite right, Carole: if ProZ does not do anything to prevent such abuse (from \"within\", mind you), more and more people will be voting with their feet.

I would not have said anything if this had just been another one of those \"whole-text translations\" posted as a KudoZ \"question\", but for a member of the ProZ staff to subvert the site\'s policies and basically undo what ProZ stands for is a bit too much. As I said before: how can ProZ expect members to pay $1 or BrowniZ points to place bids, if staff members provide free services, thus effectively negating the purpose and justification of having a job/bidding section?



Many of us (myself included) have occasionally acted in a manner that was less than professional when interacting with other members on this site. But just like in the real world, there will always be disagreements and friction in virtual societies such as this one. But I do believe that ProZ should do a bit more to \"police\" their moderators. ▲ Collapse
 
Carole Muller
Carole Muller
Denmark
Local time: 07:49
English to French
+ ...
Statistics validate your vision, Werner Dec 11, 2001

...it turns out voting with the feet is so absolutely having an impact -expecially on regaional policies- that regional feet-votes have been shown to account for major policy changes, like tax cuts.



..personally I feel indebted to all of you and especially Telesforo otherwise I would just be surfing candidly for jobs on proz: now again, look again at all the little banners swaying... (i.e. do we matter at all?)
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Telesforo Fernandez (X)
Telesforo Fernandez (X)
Local time: 11:19
English to Spanish
+ ...
You can almost do anything Dec 12, 2001

Hello all readers,



It apparently looks like one can do anything. Here is a list of things one can possibly do :



1. Post a number of fictitious jobs in different languages( before that post profiles of several agencies on the site and give some coordinates) and this way from January onwards you could possibly lose dollars after dollars.

2. My friends could post a number of fictious jobs and then award it to me and say that I have completed the... See more
Hello all readers,



It apparently looks like one can do anything. Here is a list of things one can possibly do :



1. Post a number of fictitious jobs in different languages( before that post profiles of several agencies on the site and give some coordinates) and this way from January onwards you could possibly lose dollars after dollars.

2. My friends could post a number of fictious jobs and then award it to me and say that I have completed them succesfully and dot on time. This will then appear on my profile as jobs completed.

3. Increase your Kudoz points by asking your friends to post questions.



And the list is endless apart from the usual things like getting free translations done( via sample route) , not paying for translations, create intense competition in order to lower translation rates.

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Ulrike Lieder (X)
Ulrike Lieder (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:49
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Werner, I couldn't agree more Dec 12, 2001

Werner,

I happened to see your comment on one of the lines of Reid\'s poem as it appeared bit by bit in the system and Reid was getting a free ride. Couldn\'t have agreed more. Couldn\'t have disagreed more with one moderator\'s response to your comment (something about the \"friendly face of ProZ\"). By the time I saw the question, it had already been closed, and any comments I might have added in support of your stance would most likely not have been read by anyone.


... See more
Werner,

I happened to see your comment on one of the lines of Reid\'s poem as it appeared bit by bit in the system and Reid was getting a free ride. Couldn\'t have agreed more. Couldn\'t have disagreed more with one moderator\'s response to your comment (something about the \"friendly face of ProZ\"). By the time I saw the question, it had already been closed, and any comments I might have added in support of your stance would most likely not have been read by anyone.



Reid, however, is not the only one. For the past 2 weeks or so, someone (not even a member - but that doesn\'t mean much, just look at Reid\'s profile - who occasionally refers to himself as \"Modest Mohamad\") has been getting his entire application to a German university translated via KudoZ points, both the application forms themselves (G>E) and his answers to the questions (E>G). This in spite of several requests/suggestions (warnings?) by various community members that he post this as a job. (I just saw a bunch of his questions again when I logged in this morning.)



There must be a way of stopping such obvious abuse. Where are/were the moderators? (Matter of fact, I don\'t even know who the moderators for the E>G and G>E subcommunities are...)



At one point, it was argued that links to ProZ and KudoZ term questions were provided at various sites in order to increase the visibility of ProZ (and by extension, our visibility as individual providers of translation services). Personally, I think ProZ is plenty visible, and it might be time to stop this practice. In my opinion, it undermines the (purported?) purpose of KudoZ, i.e. professional translators helping each other out (and speaking for myself, I find that I generally learn something in the process which is definitely one reason I enjoy doing it).



Rates are low enough as it is, the bidding process (that\'s another gripe that I\'d rather not get into right now) tends to undermine them even further, and now people scramble to give the store away for free? Geez.

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Carole Muller
Carole Muller
Denmark
Local time: 07:49
English to French
+ ...
More exposure gives more jobs, now think of it, does it and to whom? Dec 12, 2001

Hi Ulrikke,



I did not see the poem that is being discussed nor the replies to Werner, however I certainly believe what you describe.



Here\'s one explanation: go and read the postings by \"ullikern\" entitled \"KudoZ, free translation\". Reading this posting, I replied that I had observed the a similar case namely that proz appears on well visited pages listing \"FREE RESOURCES to help YOU with YOUR translation\", it\'s great because proz is promoting the... See more
Hi Ulrikke,



I did not see the poem that is being discussed nor the replies to Werner, however I certainly believe what you describe.



Here\'s one explanation: go and read the postings by \"ullikern\" entitled \"KudoZ, free translation\". Reading this posting, I replied that I had observed the a similar case namely that proz appears on well visited pages listing \"FREE RESOURCES to help YOU with YOUR translation\", it\'s great because proz is promoting the proz site as \"..here you have \"live\" experts answering your questions, and they do it really fast too...\" It makes porz sound like a place where the \"live\" translators are sitting inhouse someplace and having coffee and getting paid for answering this.



As usual as economics dictate \"there ain\'t nothing like a free lunch\", but does a free lunch exist? How long can a free lunch be served for free and the food doesn\'t get cold or mouldy rests are being served?



As I see it (and working with the marketing of other people\'s products) if I were to market my clients in \"get it for free\" forums I\'be hanged, especially if I tokk money for it. Some product manufacturers do not even want their high-end products showcased side by side with middle range priced similar goods.



Do we?



I just paid my platinum fee, because I did not hear my credit card telling me not to at the time, and now it\'s SCREAMING stupid fool to me day and night...
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Ulrike Lieder (X)
Ulrike Lieder (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:49
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Why buy the cow... Dec 12, 2001

...when you can get the milk for free?



Hi Carole,

I saw ullikern\'s posting this morning, and, as I said above, I find it appalling that some people seem to scramble to give the store away for free. Indeed, such links convey the impression that ProZ is just a circle of live translators, having coffee (I believe those were your words) while waiting for someone to avail themselves of their services. I doubt that this is indeed the impression Henry had in mind when h... See more
...when you can get the milk for free?



Hi Carole,

I saw ullikern\'s posting this morning, and, as I said above, I find it appalling that some people seem to scramble to give the store away for free. Indeed, such links convey the impression that ProZ is just a circle of live translators, having coffee (I believe those were your words) while waiting for someone to avail themselves of their services. I doubt that this is indeed the impression Henry had in mind when he created ProZ.



Why would someone who needs a translation look for a qualified, professional translator when he can post his text (in Reid\'s case, it\'s part of his website), sentence by sentence, for KudoZ questions and then piece it back together in the target language, quality and/or consistency be damned. At least the price was right...









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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 01:49
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you, Ulrike Dec 12, 2001

Yes, Reid was out of line, and so was the moderator! Thank you very much for your support.



I have also seen these various university applications (there was a whole chain of these questions again today).



That comparison of cows and milk is spot on! And that was point: if some member chooses to answer these types of freeloading questions, that\'s one thing. But if a \"ProZ staff member\" (and moderators are considered part of the staff) does it, it is out... See more
Yes, Reid was out of line, and so was the moderator! Thank you very much for your support.



I have also seen these various university applications (there was a whole chain of these questions again today).



That comparison of cows and milk is spot on! And that was point: if some member chooses to answer these types of freeloading questions, that\'s one thing. But if a \"ProZ staff member\" (and moderators are considered part of the staff) does it, it is outrageous - not to mention the unprofessional comments made on the site (I won\'t mention some of the comments I received in a private e-mail, because that would be against site etiquette and very offensive). That\'s why I have called for more \"policing\" of moderators.



Don\'t get me wrong: a lot of them are really fine and professional colleagues, but there are a few who really should not be moderators. ▲ Collapse
 
max (X)
max (X)
Local time: 22:49
English to Dutch
+ ...
Comment Dec 14, 2001



[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-12-15 00:36 ]
 
max (X)
max (X)
Local time: 22:49
English to Dutch
+ ...
Totally agree and comment Dec 15, 2001

I totally agree with all of you and just wanted add that yesterday I found exactly the same question I saw in a translation test which was sent to me about a week ago by a spanish company. I will never understand the ethics and integrity of a fellow translator who needs his/her test question done by other translators. It is fine with me to help out when it is for the real job but please, what is this?

By the way, I need references from this agency, so if anyone out there knows somethi... See more
I totally agree with all of you and just wanted add that yesterday I found exactly the same question I saw in a translation test which was sent to me about a week ago by a spanish company. I will never understand the ethics and integrity of a fellow translator who needs his/her test question done by other translators. It is fine with me to help out when it is for the real job but please, what is this?

By the way, I need references from this agency, so if anyone out there knows something, please let me know. ▲ Collapse
 
Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 01:49
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
It has happened again! Dec 23, 2001

Hi guys,



Most recent KudoZ abuse case: German to English, business/financial/law. One ProZ member, who claims to be a financial expert, posted 15-20 questions in a row, some of them entire sentences or parts of sentences.



Most of the questions were easy (eg, being appointed to a board, etc.). I find it interesting that a \"financial expert\" would have to post such easy questions. Oh, wait, I know why: the member was translating from one foreign languag... See more
Hi guys,



Most recent KudoZ abuse case: German to English, business/financial/law. One ProZ member, who claims to be a financial expert, posted 15-20 questions in a row, some of them entire sentences or parts of sentences.



Most of the questions were easy (eg, being appointed to a board, etc.). I find it interesting that a \"financial expert\" would have to post such easy questions. Oh, wait, I know why: the member was translating from one foreign language into another foreign language (neither German nor English is that member\'s first language).



Henry, please put a stop to these things. People like that member take on translations at low rates (and outside their areas of expertise and language combinations) and then expect other ProZ members to do their dirty work for free. ▲ Collapse
 
Rick Henry
Rick Henry  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:49
Italian to English
+ ...
Re: It's happened again... Dec 23, 2001

What can Henry do to stop this? This isn\'t a problem with the proz site. If I see someone posting too many questions, I simply choose not to answer them. Henry could, as has been previously requested, limit the number of questions per day, but, again, that\'s not solving the problem of low rates and non native language pairs that you mention.



R.

==

Quote:


On 2001-12-23 16:08, AbacusTrans wrote:... See more
What can Henry do to stop this? This isn\'t a problem with the proz site. If I see someone posting too many questions, I simply choose not to answer them. Henry could, as has been previously requested, limit the number of questions per day, but, again, that\'s not solving the problem of low rates and non native language pairs that you mention.



R.

==

Quote:


On 2001-12-23 16:08, AbacusTrans wrote:

...

Henry, please put a stop to these things. People like that member take on translations at low rates (and outside their areas of expertise and language combinations) and then expect other ProZ members to do their dirty work for free.

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Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:49
French to English
Loopholes, cheating Dec 24, 2001

Cheating is considered to be a very serious matter by those who run ProZ. Any suspected incidents of cheating ought to be reported to Henry Dotterer. All reported incidents are looked into and where substantiated, appropriate action is taken.



Never the less, the extent of the problem should not be over-estimated. For it to be fruitful, it would have to be a full-time occupation and most of us have got better things to do with our time!



Nikki

... See more
Cheating is considered to be a very serious matter by those who run ProZ. Any suspected incidents of cheating ought to be reported to Henry Dotterer. All reported incidents are looked into and where substantiated, appropriate action is taken.



Never the less, the extent of the problem should not be over-estimated. For it to be fruitful, it would have to be a full-time occupation and most of us have got better things to do with our time!



Nikki



Co-moderator

FR>EN SC

[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-12-27 01:26 ] ▲ Collapse
 
Rossana Triaca
Rossana Triaca  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 02:49
English to Spanish
A simple solution... Dec 25, 2001

[quote]

If I see someone posting too many questions, I simply choose not to answer them.

[quote]



I completely agree; to limit the number of questions would perhaps be detrimental to legitimate translators who are doing a rush job. It\'s easy to tell the difference when someone nicely asks how to say \"Merry Xmas\" in X language or someone trying to abuse the system (as it seems to be happening now in En>Sp, where an entire menu is being translated!! .



Regards,

Rossana
 
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