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Multiterm/Workbench don't recognize terms
Thread poster: Virginia Navascues

Virginia Navascues  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:33
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Sep 28, 2008

Quite frequently Workbench or Multiterm (I don’t know which) does not recognize terms that are definitely included my Multiterm glossary. When it is a single word, it doesn’t matter so much, but when it is a string of three or four words, it is very annoying and time-wasting. It has nothing to do with the percentages of word-matches.

Trados support proposed the following solution: "You will need to recreate the termbase. To do this, you will need to export all entries from the old termbase into a new termbase. "Then they provide all the steps to follow.

I did this but the problem persists.


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:33
French to Polish
+ ...
Examples? Sep 28, 2008

Virginia Navascues wrote:

Quite frequently Workbench or Multiterm (I don’t know which) does not recognize terms that are definitely included my Multiterm glossary. When it is a single word, it doesn’t matter so much, but when it is a string of three or four words, it is very annoying and time-wasting. It has nothing to do with the percentages of word-matches.

Can you give some examples of the strings you have on your termbase and the strings you have in your source text?

Two remarks:

1) Unlike DVX (and some other CAT tools with more intelligent user interface) Workbench is unable to show superposed terms, i.e. when a source fragment in shared by two terms, only one term is displayed in Workbench.
If it's your case, switch to a more intelligent CAT

2) For heavily infected source languages, the term recognition may not work.
As Trados is a purely statistical tool, Workbench will be unable to "understand" that tener + sthg may have occurrencies like tengo/tiene/tuvo/tuviera/haya tenido + sthg etc.
AFAIK, here, you have no good solution as the majority of CAT tools on the market is purely statistical now.

Trados support proposed the following solution: "You will need to recreate the termbase. To do this, you will need to export all entries from the old termbase into a new termbase.
quote]
In theory, it's true.

Cheers
GG

[Edited at 2008-09-28 12:41]


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Angeliki Papadopoulou  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 14:33
English to Greek
+ ...
Could it be Sep 28, 2008

Virginia Navascues wrote:

Trados support proposed the following solution: "You will need to recreate the termbase. To do this, you will need to export all entries from the old termbase into a new termbase. "Then they provide all the steps to follow.

I did this but the problem persists.



I may be way off base here, but could it be a language incompatibility? You know a EN-US versus EN-UK thing?


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Virginia Navascues  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:33
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
examples of strings Sep 28, 2008

Some examples could be, for instance, with the word "analysis"..

Análisis de varianza, análisis factorial confirmatorio, análisis discriminante, los resultados de este análisis, etc.

But sometimes it is a single word, for instance, "actividades" - which came up in a translation the other day and it was hit or miss whether it would recognize the term.

As for changing to another CAT, not yet, thanks, I still have to get my money's worth out of all I put into this one (time and moneywise).

thanks,

Virginia


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:33
French to Polish
+ ...
Source-target languages... Sep 28, 2008

Virginia Navascues wrote:

Some examples could be, for instance, with the word "analysis"..

Análisis de varianza, análisis factorial confirmatorio, análisis discriminante, los resultados de este análisis, etc.

I need:
1) a source sentence you have.
2) a complete list of terms defined in the termbase you expect to find in the sentence.

But sometimes it is a single word, for instance, "actividades" - which came up in a translation the other day and it was hit or miss whether it would recognize the term.

So:
1) the sublanguages are enabled in the termbase?
a) if yes, they match the sublanguages you translate?
2) the termbase is case sensitive?
3) the source-target order in the terminology recognition options matches the Workbench source-target languages?

See Workbench, Options menu > Terminology recognition options, first tab.
Unlike in a lot of other CAT tools, the source-target selection is not automatic in Trados.

And restore the default setting on the second tab.

As for changing to another CAT, not yet, thanks, I still have to get my money's worth out of all I put into this one (time and moneywise).

As I understand your examples, you use heavily the terminology in order to speed up your work.
At least take a look on DVX.
http://www.atril.com
You'll be amazed by the autoassembly feature.

Cheers
GG


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Virginia Navascues  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:33
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
not sure what you mean Sep 28, 2008

Sorry, you appear to be much more knowledgeable about CATs and their terminology than I am (which is nill).

1 & 2. )The examples I gave appear in my source texts and are defined exactly the same in Multiterm. Sometimes it will recognize "análsis" but not the rest of the term (i.e., análisis factorial), and in the very next sentence, it will recognize the whole string.

1.) I'm not sure what you mean by sublanguages. I use Spanish and American English. The termbase is set Spanish to English.

2.) I don't understand what is "case sensitive" - I'll have to check it out the Trados lengthy manuals (which are also all in computer language - and I'm no computer expert, I merely translate).

3.) Again, I set everything to Spanish-English.

Yes, I use Multiterm much more than Workbench; that is, Workbench very rarely offers me a complete sentence, because the sentences I translate rarely coincide sufficiently. So I have stored a lot of strings of often-repeated phrases in Multiterm and it is really aggravating when it doesn't recognize them (and I check back and see they are exactly the same in the glossary as the phrase in the source text).


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FarkasAndras
Local time: 13:33
English to Hungarian
+ ...
case sensitive Sep 28, 2008

Case sensitiveness is whether capital and lower case letters are taken to be different.

As to the problem itself, no (good) idea, sorry.
If you haven't tried lowering the minimum match value % setting under Options/term rec options/settings tab, maybe give that a shot. In principle you shouldn't need to for the problems you're having but it may help a bit I guess. If incorrect hits start showing up annoyingly frequently, raise it.

You could also try increasing the search depth to help the recognition of multiword expressions. If recognition gets way too slow, retreat:)


Excerpt from the manual:


minimum match value

The minimum match value expresses the minimum degree of similarity between the terminology in your source segment and the
terminology found in MultiTerm. The higher the value, the more alike terms must be.
Translators work with different values according to their requirements. You can set a value
between 30 and 100%. We recommend a minimum match value of between 65% and 75%.
The default setting is 70%.


Search depth

When scanning source segments for
terminology, Translator's Workbench evaluates not only single words but also multi-word
units, trying to find similar terms in the current termbase. The search depth value defines the
number of fuzzy matches Translator's Workbench should return examine in the current
termbase. Increasing the Search depth value slows down terminology recognition. You can set
any value within the range allowed. The default search depth setting is 20 (matches) and for a
single termbase search, this value should produce satisfactory results for local termbases but
for searching multiple termbases or when searching larger termbases you should set the
search depth to a higher value.


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:33
French to Polish
+ ...
Some remarks... DVX... Sep 28, 2008

Virginia Navascues wrote:

Sorry, you appear to be much more knowledgeable about CATs and their terminology than I am (which is nill).

Probably I am
I use 6-8 CATs for different purposes.
Some of them are more suitable for specific tasks.

1 & 2. )The examples I gave appear in my source texts and are defined exactly the same in Multiterm. Sometimes it will recognize "análsis" but not the rest of the term (i.e., análisis factorial), and in the very next sentence, it will recognize the whole string.

You use terms like "del análisis" where you try to imitate the syntax?
Normally, the longer terms prevail but sometimes, for unknown reasons, the short term is proposed.

In DVX, the Autoassembly function may choose the shorter version (it depends of several factors) but the alternative hits are always displayed, so you can force the best match.

1.) I'm not sure what you mean by sublanguages.

American English, Australian English, NZ English etc.
You can force Trados to consider these variants as completely different languages in order to discard the interferences.

I use Spanish and American English. The termbase is set Spanish to English.

In this case, I don't think yout problems is related to sublanguages.
It should work.

2.) I don't understand what is "case sensitive" - I'll have to check it out the Trados lengthy manuals (which are also all in computer language - and I'm no computer expert, I merely translate).

When your termbase is case sensitive, "Windows" and "windows" are different terms.
Although I don't think you have enabled this function during the termbase creation.

3.) Again, I set everything to Spanish-English.

Open Multiterm and reorganize your termbase.
Reorganize your TM.

If you have another PC, try to test it using the same termbase and the same source file.
If the error persist, you have a Trados bug.

Yes, I use Multiterm much more than Workbench; that is, Workbench very rarely offers me a complete sentence, because the sentences I translate rarely coincide sufficiently.

Try to lower the minimum match value.
IMHO the 70% proposed by default by Trados is too high for Spanish.
Try 50%.

So I have stored a lot of strings of often-repeated phrases in Multiterm and it is really aggravating when it doesn't recognize them (and I check back and see they are exactly the same in the glossary as the phrase in the source text).

You're a potential DVX user.

I don't say Trados is a crap but thea advanced autoassembly functions make DVX the best solution when your texts are highly repetitive at the subsentence/subsegment level.

Cheers
GG


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Amal Ibrahim  Identity Verified
Egypt
English to Arabic
+ ...
Just curious.. Sep 28, 2008

I use 6-8 CATs for different purposes.
Some of them are more suitable for specific tasks.

Would you please give more details?
Thank you


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:33
French to Polish
+ ...
A list :) Sep 28, 2008

Amal Ibrahim wrote:

I use 6-8 CATs for different purposes.
Some of them are more suitable for specific tasks.

Would you please give more details?


The CATs I use every day:
- DVX for translation (approx 70-75% of my time), it's a monster.
- SDL Trados (Workbench) for the compatibility reasons and for the pre and post-processing in the DVX workflow (including some QA procedures) and for some translations.

The CATs I use often:
- Passolo (coupled with Trados) for software localization.
- SDL Trados (SDLX) for some tagged formats (including XLIFF) and when required by the clients (in fact, I convert SDLX to DVX but I always finish my jobs in SDLX).

The CATs I use sometimes:
- Swordfish for XLIFF (TagEditor is a mega crap here)
- Wordfast when Trados for Word approach is a big mistake (e.g. when you have multiple fragments containing only numbers who need to be reformatted: in Wordfast, you can force to open this kind of segments, Trados simply skips them all)
If you work only with Word files, Wordfast is a monster.

The CATs I use rarely:
- Catalyst, if needed.
- Transit (Personal), if needed.

The Web based CATs I hate but sometimes I don't refuse little jobs.
E.g.:
- Logoport (in fact, only revisions and QA, it's a sado-maso tool for a translator)
- Idiom (a splendid example how SDL can brake a good tool and harm the translator's mental health)
So, in fact, I convert the files of both tools and I work in DVX.

In the next days, I'll take a look on MemoQ.
It's a rising star.

The list is not exhaustive i.e.
- I used ocasionnally some less known CATs when needed (e.g. RC-Wintrans I liked very much)
- the fact I don't use some CATs doesn't mean these CATs are bad (e.g. Metatexis is a good tool but you can't use all the tools you spot in your life).
- etc.

Cheers
GG


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Virginia Navascues  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:33
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
ignoramus Sep 29, 2008

Wow, what can I say? I only learned there was such a thing as CAT less than a year ago. Till then, I'd done everything manually. I stumbled onto a CAT ad and thought, "that'd be a good way to earn more money and do less work" ("Once a sentences has been translated, you never need to translate it agan. Ever.") However, I translate scientific psychology articles (Spanish to English) and the sentences are practically NEVER similar enough for Workbench to recognize them as such. Once in a long while, it'll offer me a sentence with an X% fuzzy match. Usually, I'm so astonushed I take a while to react! But I took a mini-course (1 day) on Trados (Workbench, Tag Editor, Multiterm all in one day) and that enabled me to start up Multiterm, which is what is doing the work for me, as I am making my glossary as I go along, putting words and a lot of phrases (i.e., diferencias estadísticamente significativas, all the examples of "análisis", plus more content-specific phrases, depending on the article: "actividades de ocio", "actividades diarias", "consumo de alcohol y drogas", etc., etc.). That's where Multiterm can save me time. So when it fails to find a term that is previously defined.... I only have one termbase as that's all I need.

I do have another computer (haven't turned it on in ages, don't even know if it will work), but can I just copy my Multiterm glossary into it with no problems (license problems, etc.)? [I'm totally self-taught in computers and go into a panic whenever I have to do something new or the damn thing gives me an error message.] And if so, how do I copy the glossary into it? Under the file "Termbase" I have two applications: mxw_2.mdb and mxw_3.mdb. Those are not the glossary, are they? I guess I'll have to go to a client technology support team I have a contract with and ask them how to do this.

Where can I check out DVX? Is it so complicated to learn to use as Trados? I have JUST managed to be able to use Trados, therefore my reluctance to start yet another CAT.

Thanks awfully for all your trouble analyzing my problem.


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:33
French to Polish
+ ...
Termbase transfer... DVX... Sep 29, 2008

Virginia Navascues wrote:

Wow, what can I say? I only learned there was such a thing as CAT less than a year ago. Till then, I'd done everything manually. I stumbled onto a CAT ad and thought, "that'd be a good way to earn more money and do less work" ("Once a sentences has been translated, you never need to translate it agan. Ever.")

You can't contest the Trados marketing is very good

However, I translate scientific psychology articles (Spanish to English) and the sentences are practically NEVER similar enough for Workbench to recognize them as such. Once in a long while, it'll offer me a sentence with an X% fuzzy match.

I see.
In the software localization, I have more chance (i.e. more repetitions) but I translate too a lot of technical documents related to the construction.
The engineers, design offices and buildings vary but the basic vocabulary is almost always the same and highly repetitive.
With a specialized termbase containing approx. 5000 terms/phrases and using the Autoassembly feature (e.g. unlike Trados, DVX uses smaller sentences as terms), I translate non repetitive parts of the descriptive text like a breeze.
It's faster than Trados 'cause DVX puts your terms automatically in the target sentences.
With huge termbases, it may give you an impression of machine translation.
If your termbases are good enough, it's a massive translation weapon

Usually, I'm so astonushed I take a while to react! But I took a mini-course (1 day) on Trados (Workbench, Tag Editor, Multiterm all in one day) and that enabled me to start up Multiterm,

Generally, it's a good idea to take a mini-course like this.
Or make a friend show you how it works.

[...]

I do have another computer (haven't turned it on in ages, don't even know if it will work), but can I just copy my Multiterm glossary into it with no problems (license problems, etc.)?

No problem.
You're entitled to install Trados Freelance on two machines although only on may be used at a time.

[I'm totally self-taught in computers and go into a panic whenever I have to do something new or the damn thing gives me an error message.]

If you managed to make Workbench and Multterm work together in one machine, you'll probably survive

And if so, how do I copy the glossary into it? Under the file "Termbase" I have two applications: mxw_2.mdb and mxw_3.mdb. Those are not the glossary, are they?

Yes, those are glossaries.
But you should open the main Multiterm application and use the Termbase > Detach/package termbase function in the menu in the source machine, then Load external termbase on the target one.
Make sure you don't activate the option Delete termbase permanently

I guess I'll have to go to a client technology support team I have a contract with and ask them how to do this.

It's not so difficult, I think.

Where can I check out DVX? Is it so complicated to learn to use as Trados?

http://www.atril.com
In the first time, it may be strange for you 'cause it has own editor (you don't work in Word).
Different organization of the desktop.
Different hotkeys.
Ask your questions in the DVX forum here.
E.g. I think it's better to customize a little bit the DVX comportment before you start.
But generally I think it's easier than Trados.

I have JUST managed to be able to use Trados, therefore my reluctance to start yet another CAT.

IMHO, as the general idea is the same in all CATs, it's easy to switch.
With every new CAT, the switch is faster.
E.g., some months ago, with Swordfish, I was enough productive to start to work in TWO hours.

Cheers
GG


[Edited at 2008-09-29 09:54]

[Edited at 2008-09-29 10:02]


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Amal Ibrahim  Identity Verified
Egypt
English to Arabic
+ ...
More questions.. Oct 3, 2008

Grzegorz Gryc wrote:
- SDL Trados (Workbench) for the compatibility reasons and for the pre and post-processing in the DVX workflow (including some QA procedures) and for some translations.
If you work only with Word files, Wordfast is a monster.

Compatibility with what exactly? What do you mean by the pre and post-processing in the DVX workflow?

I work with Word files only, but I would like to have a CAT that would display all my termbase entries and not only just one, and that with a stroke or two the term would be inserted in the right place.

I tried DV almost a year ago, but at the end of my small project it refused to export because of some codes. I will try it again.

How many CATs do you install on one PC? A lot of crashes?

Thank you!


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Virginia Navascues  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:33
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
DVX and computer language Oct 3, 2008

Hi,

I now downloaded a free test version of DVX and have to figure out how to import my termbase and Multiterm glossary into it, so I can try it. However, the last post by Amal makes me leery... I just don't have the time, money, and energy to buy, install, learn how to use, etc. a new CAT and then have it not work smoothly. I only got Trados to make work EASIER, but it seems one needs a crash university computer course just to understand the blasted instructions! I just do not understand all that computer gibberish, I'm a psychologist, not a computer engineer. I'll check out the DVX forum here and see what they say.... Help! All I want to do is earn my living honestly!

Cheers,

Virginia


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Virginia Navascues  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:33
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
even though this isn't about Trados any more.... Oct 4, 2008

Hi GG!

I feared as much. I spent several hours yesterday fooling around with DVX but was incapable of loading my Trados WB memory into the DVX memory. If you check it out, I posted a note in the DVX forum, but nobody's answered yet. Is there some simple way to do this that I have not found? In the instructions I downloaded, the example they give is, as usual, simple, easy and with no problems. They don't give an example for Trados. The wizard I get suddenly departs from the one they say you'll get. I just want to be able to load my Trados workbench memory and multiterm glossary to see if, as you say, it'd be more appropriate for the type of work I do. However, I don't think the instruction manuals are very good, from what I've seen so far. They seem very incomplete to me.

Well, if you can lend a hand and feel like it, I'd really appreciate it.

Cheers,

Virginia


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