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Does it EVER work in Word without problems?
Thread poster: Marinus Vesseur

Marinus Vesseur  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 21:36
English to Dutch
+ ...
Dec 18, 2004

Dear colleagues. I have been working with Trados for 3 months now and must say that I haven't yet seen what good it does for me as a translator. The implementation in Word is horrifically bad. EVERY document in Word has caused problems and error messages. "End of paragraph not found" "Cannot convert to RTF", that sort of thing, peferably in the middle of a translation. I recommend anyone to convert your doc to rtf FIRST! If that works, you might as well use TagEditor in the Trados suite. This works reliaby at least. I suspect that the bad quality of Microsoft products has something to do with it, nevertheless I am thinking of testing Wordfast to see if the problems are less. I am surprised how such an expensive product as Trados can be so unprofessionally made. It's all marketing, or, as the local saying goes: "manure" in a gift wrapping. I hope you have more positive experiences with it but I am so fed up, I just had to let off steam here.

Added on 04.01.: In the meantime, thanks to the help of my colleagues here, I've found out how to work around the Table Of Contents issue, namely by stopping Trados before it gets there and continuing after the TOC. Also I have succeeded to Clean Up a doc file despite problems with .doc to .rtf and back conversion, namely by using Wordfast to do the cleanup. It seems to convert without using the MS Word filter, thus running more reliably. The point remains that Trados resembles Microsoft products in that its primary purpose seems to be to make as much money to its owners with the least possible decent programming and refining effort. It is cluttered, unreliable, fragile and no support is offered without charge (same as MS Office). On the other hand, the marketing propaganda is strong, and market leadership a prime directive, consequently I feel I must work with it to be able to compete. Certainly not bad from a commercial point of view. Yet, I feel disturbed and am aggravated that this is the way the commercial world works. I'll continue being on the look-out for a more professional and dedicated solution.

[Edited at 2005-01-04 08:24]


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Pamela Brizzola  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 06:36
Member (2004)
English to Italian
+ ...
Yes, some problems but.. Dec 18, 2004

..it works fine for me.

I don't know why Trados has become the market leader in terms of CAT tools. It is probably marketing.I've been using it for 8 years now.
However, although it might generate some errors from now and then, I generally have very little complaints.
Regarding the conversion of files from doc to rtf, what kind of file format do yo choose when you create the TM?
If you choose Word documents (rtf) and then translate .doc documents, Trados may find some inconsistencies and generate errors.
I would advice that you check this setting and retry.

Good luck
Pamela


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 06:36
English to German
+ ...
Hardly any problems at all Dec 18, 2004

Marinus,
With all due respect, but "letting off steam" gets you nowhere.

Why don't you start by telling us which versions you're using (full version numbers, please - check under Help - About...), as well as your operating system and MS Word version (again, full version please, including Service Packs/Releases).

I very rarely get problems - if I do, these can generally be traced to problems associated with the Word file affected.

I use Trados 6.5.2.417 (haven't had the time to upgrade to build 438/439 yet), MTiX 6.2.0.279, MS Word XP SP2 under Win2k SP4; 1GB RAM.

Best regards,
Ralf


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Rossana Triaca  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 01:36
Member (2002)
English to Spanish
Dump Trados... Dec 18, 2004

and move on to Deja Vu.

Ok ok, that's not always possible, but for me the greastest disadvantage of Trados is exactly that; MS Word dependability. We all know how buggy Word is, hence any program based on it will eventually run into trouble (and its progress is seriously limited for the future).

Since Trados is the CAT tool with more users, it has been tested a lot more than its competitors and hence has the greatest number of bugs/problems documented. That being said, I still find the quality level unacceptable given the price of the tool.

Deja Vu is, in my personal opinion, much better, but so is any competitive CAT that has an independant interface from Word. If I were you I would dowload trial versions of all the major CAT tools around and test them... ultimately, you'll find the tool that's best for you.


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Marinus Vesseur  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 21:36
English to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Where is this setting? Dec 18, 2004

Pamela Brizzola wrote:

..it works fine for me.

I don't know why Trados has become the market leader in terms of CAT tools. It is probably marketing.I've been using it for 8 years now.
However, although it might generate some errors from now and then, I generally have very little complaints.
Regarding the conversion of files from doc to rtf, what kind of file format do yo choose when you create the TM?
If you choose Word documents (rtf) and then translate .doc documents, Trados may find some inconsistencies and generate errors.
I would advice that you check this setting and retry.

Good luck
Pamela



Sounds like a good idea bit I do not find an option when I create a TM in the work bench. I'm still a greenhorn so I might be looking in the wrong place? Could you specify? Thanks!


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Marinus Vesseur  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 21:36
English to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Trados 6.5.5.438, Word XP SP2, Office 2003, 512 MB Dec 18, 2004

Ralf Lemster wrote:

Marinus,
With all due respect, but "letting off steam" gets you nowhere.

Why don't you start by telling us which versions you're using (full version numbers, please - check under Help - About...), as well as your operating system and MS Word version (again, full version please, including Service Packs/Releases).

I very rarely get problems - if I do, these can generally be traced to problems associated with the Word file affected.

I use Trados 6.5.2.417 (haven't had the time to upgrade to build 438/439 yet), MTiX 6.2.0.279, MS Word XP SP2 under Win2k SP4; 1GB RAM.

Best regards,
Ralf


Dear Ralf

Thanks for your reply. Okay, I admit that my comments were over the top. Yet I have experienced nothing but trouble with Trados yet, when used in Word. Like I said, it's often a bug in Word that causes it, but shouldn't the Trados programmers have foreseen that and programmed a decent doc to rtf filter instead of leaving it to Word to do that , IF it does, for example? Today it got stuck on some sort of hyperlink field in the document, part of the tabel of contents. The heading on any page in the manual is automatically adapted on the correct line in the table of contents on page 2. But Trados gets stuck and says "End of paragraph not found", leaving me with a non-reponding programme. Okay, I can work around it by leaving the headings of paragraphs out, but is that how it should be? I doubt it. Anyway, maybe you do have an idea. Gerne auch auf Deutsch, wenn das leichter ist. Danke!


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Marinus Vesseur  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 21:36
English to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks. You hit the nail on the head! Dec 18, 2004

Rossana Triaca wrote:

and move on to Deja Vu.

Ok ok, that's not always possible, but for me the greastest disadvantage of Trados is exactly that; MS Word dependability. We all know how buggy Word is, hence any program based on it will eventually run into trouble (and its progress is seriously limited for the future).

Since Trados is the CAT tool with more users, it has been tested a lot more than its competitors and hence has the greatest number of bugs/problems documented. That being said, I still find the quality level unacceptable given the price of the tool.

Deja Vu is, in my personal opinion, much better, but so is any competitive CAT that has an independant interface from Word. If I were you I would dowload trial versions of all the major CAT tools around and test them... ultimately, you'll find the tool that's best for you.


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 06:36
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
We are again reaching the point to start discussing the "my toy is the best" issue. Dec 18, 2004

Anyway, there is no best CAT. This is becasue our needs are too different, so that any not individual made CAT would meet them.

I´m using Trados since 2000, so not that long, and am quite happy with it. You should also bear in mind, that I translate into Polish, which makes the whole thing a bit more complicated.
What I like in Trados is to be able to work with Word. Word is not that bad, as you want it to be. What is bad, is how the people use it. Because it is so easy to use Word, it is "missbraucht" (you see, for me German woul be better ).
This causes the most problems.
Documents with cross references should be prepared prior to translate them. If you have an automatic generated table of contents in your document, Trados will tell you "End of paragraph not found" - but who will then translate an automated table of contents? (OK, I´ve seen people doing this and wondering, that at reopening or printing the document the text was resetted to the prior version.)

Consider, that Trados offers not only translating Word documents, but much more. But for translating Word documents this is the best tool - maybe beside of Wordfast.
Any other tool filters Word files or saves them as rtf - this is enough to damage more sophisticated formatted textes.
And for other file types you have other tools in Trados suite. So critisizing Trados only because of the Word interaction is IMO wrong.

Regards
Jerzy


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 06:36
English to German
+ ...
Don't translate the ToC Dec 18, 2004

Hi again,
Okay, I admit that my comments were over the top.

I have no problem with that - my point was that it doesn't solve your problem.

Today it got stuck on some sort of hyperlink field in the document, part of the tabel of contents.

Assuming that this is a ToC that was created using the corresponding Word function, there's no translatable text in there - update the ToC once you have finished translating and cleaned up the document.

Gerne auch auf Deutsch, wenn das leichter ist. Danke!

Not in this forum...

Best regards,
Ralf


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SysfilterMaker
Germany
Local time: 06:36
No, you should check all word documents... Dec 18, 2004

Hello Marinus,

you should check all word documents before translating with Trados.

A check list:
- bookmarks (Trados Bookmarkhandler / or other bookmark macros)
- tables
- inserted objects
- frames (Positionsrahmen)
- pictures
- change bars (Änderungsmarkierungen)
- filial(?) document (Filial Dokumente)
- other special formattings (colors, special fields)
- online help RTF files ?

You can check and decide if it is profitable to translate with Trados or not. Don't forget to add additional expenses to your calculation. For somme documents you need to add some hours, for some bigger projects some days of extra work.

A lot of companies use wordcheck macros/tools to protect or prepare word files or even don't translate some word documents types with CAT tools.

Regards (schöne Grüße)
Wilhelm Polmann


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lefoque
United States
Local time: 00:36
French to English
+ ...
Does it ever work in word Dec 19, 2004

I'm curious to know if the "can't find end of paragraph' error occurred with a Table of Contents. I often run into that error with a document that has a table of contents. The only solution I've found is to just translate the table of contents manually. It seems once I've gone past it, Trados functions normally. I've used both Trados and Wordfast and I prefer Trados. I've encountered problems using either one, and similar ones at that. I've also ran into the following problem: in Word trados doesn't always reproduce translated text in the same fonts as the original -ie, the text isn't bold when it should be or the font sizes don't match etc. I'm not sure why this occurs. It must have something to do with how Trados recognizes translation segments. It's a pain to have to use the paint function in these instances, but overall, I think Trados helps me to work more quickly and efficiently.

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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 06:36
English to German
+ ...
Yes, it does - see above, and in other threads Dec 19, 2004

Hi Victor,
I'm curious to know if the "can't find end of paragraph' error occurred with a Table of Contents. I often run into that error with a document that has a table of contents. The only solution I've found is to just translate the table of contents manually. It seems once I've gone past it, Trados functions normally.

See above... no need to translate a ToC that's been created automatically, as this is simply a set of links to headings in the document.

I've also ran into the following problem: in Word trados doesn't always reproduce translated text in the same fonts as the original -ie, the text isn't bold when it should be or the font sizes don't match etc. I'm not sure why this occurs. It must have something to do with how Trados recognizes translation segments.


This is usually caused by improper formatting of the source document. The issue has been discussed numerous times - use "styles" as a search criterion, or you may want to check two earlier threads discussing these issues:

Font Change... and Format Changes....

HTH, Ralf


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 06:36
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Well, check the styles, don't translate automated fields manually! Dec 19, 2004

If Trados shows the error "End of paragraph not found" on a ToC, than it is surely automaticaly generated ToC. To check, whether it is so, either go to Tools - Options - View and select "Background for fields - allways" (or similar, I have german Word) or translate one or two hadlines, then go back to ToC, place the cursor somwhere in it and press F9. Word will ask you, if you only want to actualise page numbers or to recreate the whole ToC.

As for font changes, it is NOT Trados/Wordfast doing this, but more or less you... Because you did not check the styles and set them to the proper font and so on. This issue (TBH I fail to see any issue here) was discussed here veery often. Many users use Word, as it were a bit better typewritter, thus doing things which should not be done. IMO it is very advisable to get at least basical knowledge about the software we are using - in particular about Word. If you don't know how to do something in Word, ask its help - you will be astonished, how good it is...


Regards
Jerzy


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Marinus Vesseur  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 21:36
English to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Table of contents causes problems in Word Dec 20, 2004

victor foster wrote:

I'm curious to know if the "can't find end of paragraph' error occurred with a Table of Contents. I often run into that error with a document that has a table of contents. The only solution I've found is to just translate the table of contents manually. It seems once I've gone past it, Trados functions normally. I've used both Trados and Wordfast and I prefer Trados. I've encountered problems using either one, and similar ones at that. I've also ran into the following problem: in Word trados doesn't always reproduce translated text in the same fonts as the original -ie, the text isn't bold when it should be or the font sizes don't match etc. I'm not sure why this occurs. It must have something to do with how Trados recognizes translation segments. It's a pain to have to use the paint function in these instances, but overall, I think Trados helps me to work more quickly and efficiently.


That's exactly what it is, although in this case it is some sort of hyperlink-based Topic of Contents, supposedly refreshing the table of contents when the headings above each new paragraph are changed. But it's interesting you've encountered the same problem here. And your comment on Wordfast being just as "feeble" is very helpful. So I'll just work around it and hope for the day I'll get a translation job with just the right content to allow my Trados to show off what it can do. Thanks!


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Marinus Vesseur  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 21:36
English to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Automated ToC in Word Dec 20, 2004

Jerzy Czopik wrote:

If Trados shows the error "End of paragraph not found" on a ToC, than it is surely automaticaly generated ToC. To check, whether it is so, either go to Tools - Options - View and select "Background for fields - allways" (or similar, I have german Word) or translate one or two hadlines, then go back to ToC, place the cursor somwhere in it and press F9. Word will ask you, if you only want to actualise page numbers or to recreate the whole ToC.

As for font changes, it is NOT Trados/Wordfast doing this, but more or less you... Because you did not check the styles and set them to the proper font and so on. This issue (TBH I fail to see any issue here) was discussed here veery often. Many users use Word, as it were a bit better typewritter, thus doing things which should not be done. IMO it is very advisable to get at least basical knowledge about the software we are using - in particular about Word. If you don't know how to do something in Word, ask its help - you will be astonished, how good it is...


Regards
Jerzy


Thank you, Jerzy, I'll look up this Word funtion.


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