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Tageditor: Too many tags in isc file, help!
Thread poster: Frédéric Aubert

Frédéric Aubert  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 17:10
English to French
Jul 19, 2007

Hi all,

My client sent me this isc file for translation. I had never met this type of file before, so I opened it with tageditor, which anyway seems to be the only software willing to show the text inside.
Except that, once open, the file looks like this:



I must say this is an awesome number of tags. The end file is supposed to be a PDF with a lot of tables and columns in it, so this explains that.

But imagine translating this.

Would anyone have a solution to clear up all this mess?


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Livia D'Ettorre  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 17:10
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
I don't think so Jul 19, 2007

Hi Frédéric,

Unfortunately I don't think there is anything you can do about it. If there is, please let me know However, it does help if in TagEditor you click on "No tag text". In this way you don't see so many tags anymore (although they are still there).

I hope this helps a bit.

Regards,

Livia


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Frédéric Aubert  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 17:10
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks! Jul 19, 2007

Thanks Livia, this does help a little, though I still have arrows and all everywhere.
Well, I should be able to do the job, now.

If I ever find a better solution I'll post it here.


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Livia D'Ettorre  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 17:10
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
Good! Jul 19, 2007

Ok, thanks. Have fun with your translation!

Livia


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Selcuk Akyuz  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 18:10
Member (2006)
English to Turkish
+ ...
That is why I don't use TagEditor anymore Jul 19, 2007

Although I own Trados, I translate TagEditor files with Deja Vu.

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Stefan Gentz
Local time: 17:10
English to German
+ ...
ISC/INX with Déjà Vu Jul 19, 2007

Selcuk Akyuz wrote:
Although I own Trados, I translate TagEditor files with Deja Vu.


So, Déjà Vu magically prevents the user from seeing all these tags? Maybe DV is able to hide a few more tags in such a messy isc file. Let's face it: If the author of the InDesign File created a messy document with tons of manual formatting overrides and tons of semgent internal formattings all of these (and each single) formatting changes is stored in the ISC (InDesign Story Collector) or in the (xml based) INX file.
Each Translation Memory Software has preserve these tags to guarantee ISC or INX file integrity and XML validation - this is of course also true for Déja Vu.
The bottom line is, messy files look messy in all translation memory softwares.

Cheers,
*Stefan.

[Bearbeitet am 2007-07-19 16:42]

[Bearbeitet am 2007-07-19 16:42]


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Frédéric Aubert  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 17:10
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
Maybe not Indesign? Jul 19, 2007

I'm not sure but your remark, Stefan, made me think that perhaps these files (as there are actually 4 of them) were not created directly in Indesign. It made me thought of Html files that were created with crappy Wysiwyg editors and have useless tags everywhere..

Anyway, this will be my cross to bear this time


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Livia D'Ettorre  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 17:10
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
Not sure about that Jul 19, 2007

Frédéric Aubert wrote:

I'm not sure but your remark, Stefan, made me think that perhaps these files (as there are actually 4 of them) were not created directly in Indesign. It made me thought of Html files that were created with crappy Wysiwyg editors and have useless tags everywhere..

Anyway, this will be my cross to bear this time


I have translated many Indesign files very similar to the one you showed us, so it could well be that they were created in Indesign.


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Stefan Gentz
Local time: 17:10
English to German
+ ...
It is InDesign Jul 19, 2007

Frédéric Aubert wrote:
I'm not sure but your remark, Stefan, made me think that perhaps these files (as there are actually 4 of them) were not created directly in Indesign.


Sorry, if my comment was ambiguous. InDesign is a Desktop Publishing Application. For older versions of InDesign there was the TRADOS Story Collector plug-in. With this plug-in it is possible to create "ISC" (= InDesign Story Collector) Files. You can open and translate ISC Files directly in TagEditor.
For newer InDesign versions the recommended procedure is to save the InDesign files as INX (InDesign Exchange), an xml based representation of the InDesign file. You can also open INX files directly in TagEditor.

It made me thought of Html files that were created with crappy Wysiwyg editors and have useless tags everywhere..

Actually it is a little bit like this. InDesign is a very powerful design application. If authors are not familar with creating flat, clean documents this usually results in bloated docs like the one you have. Regarding HTML: Indeed, basically it's the same technical concept: Tags are used to mark up (define) text with structural elements and formatting information. The complexer the (user) formatting, the complexer the tags. More formatting = more tags.

Best regards,

Stefan Gentz
TRACOM OHG

[Bearbeitet am 2007-07-19 19:55]


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tectranslate ITS GmbH
Local time: 17:10
German
+ ...
InDesign IS crappy in terms of tagging Jul 19, 2007

I agree with the general notion of what Stefan said there - most people who work with InDesign (or any other DTP program, for that matter) don't seem to have a clue what they're doing.

But the way InDesign internally stores formatting instructions, which is where this output comes from (not from Trados!), seems to rely on brute force rather than smart encoding.

For instance, encoding a sentence with a single word that is in bold as in the following example is just not very elegant or efficient:
<cFont:"Arial Bk BT"><cSize:"12.0000"><cStyle:"Normal"><cFamily:"Regular">Hier steht der </cFamily></cStyle></cSize></cFont><cFont:"Arial Bk BT"><cSize:"12.0000"><cStyle:"Normal"><cFamily:"Bold">wichtige</cFamily></cStyle></cSize></cFont><cFont:"Arial Bk BT"><cSize:"12.0000"><cStyle:"Normal"><cFamily:"Regular"> Text.</cFamily></cStyle></cSize></cFont>

Why not just encode that as follows?
<cFont:"Arial Bk BT"><cSize:"12.0000"><cStyle:"Normal"><cFamily:"Regular">Hier steht der <cFamily:"Bold">wichtige</cFamily><cFamily:"Regular"> Text.</cFamily></cStyle></cSize></cFont>

So it is a suboptimal system to begin with, but improper handling obviously worsens the problem.

Benjamin

P.S.: I don't have the exact syntax of all InDesign tags in my head, i.e. my example might not be accurate to the letter - it's just meant to be an illustration of what's wrong with this system.

P.P.S.: Slight correction - curse this forum system and its lack of proper [ code ][ /code ] BBCodes.

[Edited at 2007-07-19 20:20]


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Piotr Bienkowski  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 17:10
Member (2005)
English to Polish
+ ...
Just out of curiosity Jul 20, 2007

Benjamin, how did you "smuggle" angle brackets into your posting? usually text disappears after the opening angle bracket...

Regards,

Piotr


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Stefan Gentz
Local time: 17:10
English to German
+ ...
HTML Entities Jul 20, 2007

Piotr Bienkowski wrote:
Benjamin, how did you "smuggle" angle brackets into your posting? usually text disappears after the opening angle bracket...


This can be done by masking the brackets with HTML entities. & lt; and & gt; gives <tag>. Please ignore the space after the ampersand when testing it.
lt = less than
gt = greater than

Best regards,
Stefan Gentz
TRACOM OHG

[Bearbeitet am 2007-07-20 06:14]


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tectranslate ITS GmbH
Local time: 17:10
German
+ ...
Aww shucks... Jul 20, 2007

Stefan Gentz wrote:

Piotr Bienkowski wrote:
Benjamin, how did you "smuggle" angle brackets into your posting? usually text disappears after the opening angle bracket...


This can be done by masking the brackets with HTML entities. & lt; and & gt; gives . Please ignore the space after the ampersand when testing it.
lt = less than
gt = greater than

Best regards,
Stefan Gentz
TRACOM OHG


I was just about to tell everybody it's a special power I have, like magic hacker abilities or something, but no, you had to disillusion everybody with the truth.

P.S.: Let me baffle you with another display of HTML craftsmanship instead: You want to use the &gt; and &lt; entities to get the < and > characters.

[Edited at 2007-07-20 09:46]


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