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What's wrong with my Trados TagEditor (TE) or InDesign setting?
Thread poster: Han Li
Han Li  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 22:59
English to Chinese
+ ...
Oct 7, 2007

Dear colleagues,
I have translated InDesign file with TE from English to Chinese. When I open the INX file exported from TE, the Chinese characters can’t be identified. I have to select the paragraph and change the font as Chinese one by one. I currently solve the problem by this way. It’s annoying.
I use InDesign CS2 (Simplified Chinese) and Trados 7.5. The default target font is Chinese in Trados. I want to know why this problem happens. Is there anything wrong with my Trados or InDesign setting? I think the main reason is the font and Japan or Korean character would encounter the problem, too.
I would appreciate it if you could provide me a solution for it.
Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Han Li


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Boris Kimel  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 17:59
English to Russian
+ ...
This is OK Oct 7, 2007

AFAIK TagEditor does not change any fonts here since these are inside InDesign tags. You'll need to select the font containing chinese characters before or after the translation. To speed the process up you could also import InDesign styles from a file with changed fonts.

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Jan Sundström  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 16:59
English to Swedish
+ ...
Boris is right Oct 8, 2007

Boris Kimel wrote:

AFAIK TagEditor does not change any fonts here since these are inside InDesign tags. You'll need to select the font containing chinese characters before or after the translation. To speed the process up you could also import InDesign styles from a file with changed fonts.


This all depends on which fonts the source document uses.
If the source font is limited to the western alphabet, Indesign won't find any chinese characters when it tries to fetch them from the fontmap. This is totally logical.

You need to either change all the fonts in Indesign before translation, to ensure that only fontmaps with multiple alphabets are used (like .OTF for instance, or certain .TTF that are huge and contain all alphabets with thousands of chars).
Otherwise the designer has to change the fonts manually in Indesign afterwards, if they don't display correctly.

Read more about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenType#SING_gaiji_solution

Off course, there is also a money/moral aspect, since fonts cost money (unless they are freebie fonts or used without consent), and that is often overlooked by both the end client and the agency!

/Jan

[Edited at 2007-10-08 16:25]


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Han Li  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 22:59
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks…… Oct 9, 2007

Thanks a lot, Boris and Jan.
I think there currently isn't a shortcut for this problem. Maybe we can write a script or make a plug-in for InDesign to do the work.

Regards,
Han Li


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Jan Sundström  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 16:59
English to Swedish
+ ...
There's no shortcut Oct 9, 2007

Han Li wrote:

Thanks a lot, Boris and Jan.
I think there currently isn't a shortcut for this problem. Maybe we can write a script or make a plug-in for InDesign to do the work.

Regards,
Han Li


Hi Han Li,

I don't think you understood the situation.

Fonts can either contain one alphabet only, or multiple alphabets.
If the original designer created an Indesign file built on monolingual fonts, those fonts don't contain any Chinese/Japanese/Korean characters.

So after translation, you open the file in Indesign, and the program will search for Chinese characters in those particular fonts, since the translation inherits the formatting.
BUT: since those particular fonts are monolingual, Indesign won't find any Chinese characters, and hence display garbage chars instead.
This is expected behavior, and not a bug. You can't conjure something out of nothing!

No script or plugin in the world can create Chinese fonts out of thin air, so it's futile to even hope for it.

The solution, as I already told you:
1. Either the client is smart and make sure that all his fonts are .OTF all the way from the beginning. Or you will replace all fonts with .OTF when you receive the source file, before translation. That way, Indesign will easily find the corresponding Chinese chars in the .OTF afterwards.

2. Or someone will have to buy/pirate fonts at the tail end, and replace these manually (just like you did).

I strongly encourage you to read these pages, if you really want to understand what you're doing:
http://www.myfonts.com/info/opentype-multiple-languages/
http://www.adobe.com/type/opentype/

/Jan


[Edited at 2007-10-09 10:55]


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Han Li  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 22:59
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks again…… Oct 9, 2007

Thanks, Jan. You’ve been a big help.
You give me a hint. I have just done a test for a translated INX file imported from TE. When it was opened with InDesign first, the Chinese character is not readable. This time I am not select the characters manually, but choose Type> find font, the find font dialogue is opened. Then I selected the font that the source language used and let InDesign to find it. The unreadable characters just use the font as that of the source language font. So I choose the target font as one Chinese font and replaced all of it. The unreadable characters can be read now.
I think your first solution must be worked, but I think the OTF font would better a Chinese OTF font. The problem is if the font of an English letter is one kind of Chinese font, it can be displayed correctly; otherwise a Chinese character may not be displayed correctly if it use English font type.
The pages you recommended is very helpful to me. I always use Opentype font in my DTP work, but I hadn’t know it has so many benefits. 
Thanks again……

Regards,
Han Li


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Boris Kimel  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 17:59
English to Russian
+ ...
My story Oct 9, 2007

Though having never worked with Chinese (no wonder - just can't read it), the situation should be essentially the same. I am doing a full-service for a direct customer. They give me English InDesign files of some 2 by 2 meters advertising posters. I save the INX, translate it and edit the styles changing the fonts from "ZZZ" to "ZZZ Cyrillic" - the customer has bought the fonts online, it's no big deal and took him just minutes after his head office has told to keep the font face as close as possible to the original. After having the styles changed in one file I just import the styles into other translated files overwriting the existing styles. This assumes the documents are fomatted using styles - which is not always so. Another issue is the font size, since texts in Russian tend to be somewhat longer - I just make the font smaller by 2-3 points. The fonts we use are Type 1, but this is irrelevant as long as our local printing shop can handle these.

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Jan Sundström  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 16:59
English to Swedish
+ ...
OTF fonts are not language-specific Oct 16, 2007

Han Li wrote:

I think your first solution must be worked, but I think the OTF font would better a Chinese OTF font.


Hi again Han Li,

"Chinese OTF font" is an oxymoron. The Open Type format are designed to contain many different charsets and alphabets, and all common OTF files include both western as well as CJK fonts.

Anyway, good that you've found a way to deal with this!

Best,

Jan


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Stefan Gentz
Local time: 16:59
English to German
+ ...
"Chinese OTF font" is *not* an oxymoron Oct 18, 2007

Hi Jan,

J-a-n S-ndstr-m wrote:
"Chinese OTF font" is an oxymoron. The Open Type format are designed to contain many different charsets and alphabets,


Actually it's not an oxymoron at all. The Open Type Format specification is just a specification - and the Unicode ability is part of this platform. You can create e.g. an OpenType font containing only symbols (just think of Wingdings). There are no specification requirements to include language specific charaters in an Open Type font. In fact it's up to the font designer which languages he supports - and by far not all designers are willing to desing some ten thousand extra glyphs to support all and every language from baltic to CE, from Russian to Greek, from Turkish to Hebrew, Arabic and to make the font explode in size - CJK. Actually the vast majority of fonts does only contain western characters.

and all common OTF files include both western as well as CJK fonts.

Arial Unicode does. And SimSun. And perhaps a handful of other MS backed fonts. But surely not the "typical" font you can buy online for a few dollars. Creating a combined font family is a job for a crowd of designers working together for several months if not years.

Just wanted to manage expectations here...

Kind regards,
Stefan Gentz

P.S.: With InDesign CS3 and XML you can take advantage of XSL(T) and could automate style changes "on the fly" during opening files. But this is onyl for XML based InDesign szenarios and is of course quite demanding.

[Bearbeitet am 2007-10-18 22:02]


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