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Thread poster: Susan Welsh

Susan Welsh  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:10
Member (2008)
Russian to English
+ ...
Oct 14, 2008

1. Your headline should (please) give the reader an idea of what you want to know or what your point is. In the forum "Getting Established," a question whose title is "Getting established" is not conducive to being read. Neither is something like "Have you ever seen this before?"

2. Newbies should check the FAQs and the user's manual (yes, there is one--it's under "articles on translation," and the title is written in the singular possessive--user's--when you search for it), and do a search in the forum archive, before writing a post. Many questions have been discussed extensively before. You may still have questions, but you'll be better informed.

3. The most FAQ is "how much should I charge?" The hedged answer to that is hidden DEEP in the FAQ document, where nobody would notice it. The real answer is, you have to be a ProZ member to look at the site's overview of what translators in your language pair charge.

4. And finally, a personal plea: Could we have a moratorium on kvetching [that's a technical term] about Kudoz? At least for a month or so? It gets so tiresome.

Susan


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Mervyn Henderson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 22:10
Member
Spanish to English
+ ...
Newbie downer? Oct 14, 2008

Most of the points relate to newbies. I must confess I get frustrated too at the Oh-hello-I'm-new-here-what-should-I-do? postings. Well, why not? It is rather annoying. I can't be the only one who feels this way.

As for Kudoz ... no, I won't mention it.


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Amy Williams  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:10
Italian to English
+ ...
bring on the stickies Oct 14, 2008

Susan,
Yes, but how do you intend putting these "suggestions" into practice? Can we really assume that (new) users who don't take the time to search the forums are going to take the time to search for and read your post? Which brings me to...

Sticky topics are long overdue here (or maybe they exist and I just haven't seen them?). The suggestion has been put forward a number of times but as far as I can make out there's no evidence of this happening. Surely this would be worth implementing (site staff?)?

Hopefully this would be a constructive way to address some of the issues in your post.

Cheers,
Amy


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 23:10
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
Should we have a new forum? Oct 14, 2008

This would be a forum for quite new, surprising and original questions!

Then we could concentrate on this forum and leave the rest to newbies.

I don't mind answering stupid questions if I have the time. The search function in Proz is not very effective and one needs to be lucky to find what one is searching for.

Regards
Heinrich


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 16:10
English to French
+ ...
Sticky threads Oct 14, 2008

I think that sticky threads would mostly fix the newbie issues. Most everything a newbie would ask on this forum is already covered somewhere on the site. However, people are just plain lazy and simply won't take a minute to find the answer - they instead post a thread asking others to find the answer for them. That, to me, is plain rude. If your time is too precious to find that answer, what makes you think mine isn't just as precious as yours?

If Mohammed doesn't go to the Mountain, why not have the Mountain go to Mohammed? Sticky threads are always visible to everybody and appear ahead of other threads, so no excuses.

As for the KudoZ kvetching, I am afraid that will not stop until the KudoZ system is considered at least satisfactory by the majority, which is far from being the case at the moment. Those who want improvements don't really have any other solution than to discuss the issue and try to find solutions that site staff will hopefully take note of.


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Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:10
French to English
Newbie restriction Oct 14, 2008

Susan Welsh wrote:
2. Newbies should check the FAQs and the user's manual (yes, there is one--it's under "articles on translation," and the title is written in the singular possessive--user's--when you search for it), and do a search in the forum archive, before writing a post. Many questions have been discussed extensively before. You may still have questions, but you'll be better informed.


Quite. I would suggest:
a) starting new threads is disabled for newbies for the first 6 months after registration.
b) any attempt to start a new thread within the first year automatically redirects to the forum search function.

Mind you, it could also be pointed out that the original posting in this very thread does not, on the face of it, offer any startlingly original comments that have not been seen before, and that some judicious "yeah, I agree" comments added to existing threads would probably have done the trick....


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 22:10
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Some comments Oct 14, 2008

Susan Welsh wrote:
1. Your headline should (please) give the reader an idea of what you want to know or what your point is. In the forum "Getting Established," a question whose title is "Getting established" is not conducive to being read. Neither is something like "Have you ever seen this before?"


I disagree. If your post is about getting established in general, then that subject line is perfect. Otherwise you are forced to think up some clever subject line which may related to only one aspect or question in your post, which might lead to some people not contributing because they don't realise the thread contains more than what the subject lines implies.

What I dislike is this thing where people who respond, should also write a subject line, supposedly to summarise their post. How silly is that? Again, if your post answers or touches upon multiple points, your ultra-specific subject line may be irrelevant to some of them or even put their meaning in an unintended light. This invariably leads to the practice by some to write one half of the sentence in the subject line and the other half in the post itself. IMO replies don't need subject lines. If a reply can't survive without a subject line, then it is not well-written.

2. Newbies should check the FAQs and the user's manual ... and do a search in the forum archive, before writing a post.


We tend to live and learn. There is a downside to making something easy to use, namely that it makes it easy to use without having to read the manual. I prefer a lenient spirit on large public forums like this one where newbies (and oldies) who contravene rules are only reprimanded when their actions get disruptive.

And the ProZ.com search system is pretty much useless, if you ask me. And if you ask me, I'll tell you why.

And there's nothing wrong with asking the same question over and over and over. Some respondents enjoy answering them again and again and again.

3. The most FAQ is "how much should I charge?"


No, I think the most frequently asked question is "How dare outsourcers expect me to work for this little????" and there is no answer to it.

4. And finally, a personal plea: Could we have a moratorium on kvetching about Kudoz? At least for a month or so? It gets so tiresome.


It is only tiresome if you read all posts. Limit yourself and experience bliss.


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Tomás Cano Binder, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 22:10
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Kudoz kvetching... Oct 14, 2008

Susan Welsh wrote:
4. And finally, a personal plea: Could we have a moratorium on kvetching [that's a technical term] about Kudoz? At least for a month or so? It gets so tiresome.


Yes, I entirely agree! Now, honestly folks, it's sort of a permanent discussion on the evils of Kudoz. I think I will open a forum about the great aspects of Kudoz too just balance things out!


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 16:10
English to French
+ ...
Moratoria Oct 14, 2008

I don't think the idea of a moratorium on anything is any good in a community setting. I could name a dozen things I'd personally put a moratorium on off the top of my head - I am sure many of you would be mad at me if they were implemented. This is perfectly contrary to the idea of community.

I think it may be a good idea to have a separate forum for KudoZ. This would allow interested parties to discuss KudoZ issues - both good and bad - and uninterested parties to filter that forum so it simply doesn't display. Mind you, I am probably the first to admit that, ideally, we should not have a need for a separate KudoZ forum - but only the Powers That Be can ensure that we never have a need for it.


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Caryl Swift  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 22:10
Polish to English
+ ...
Why, Samuel... Oct 14, 2008

... ? ( )

And the ProZ.com search system is pretty much useless, if you ask me. And if you ask me, I'll tell you why.


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Marie-Hélène Hayles  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:10
Italian to English
+ ...
Erm... Oct 15, 2008

Viktoria Gimbe wrote:

I think it may be a good idea to have a separate forum for KudoZ. This would allow interested parties to discuss KudoZ issues - both good and bad - and uninterested parties to filter that forum so it simply doesn't display. Mind you, I am probably the first to admit that, ideally, we should not have a need for a separate KudoZ forum - but only the Powers That Be can ensure that we never have a need for it.


What's this, if it isn't a separate forum for Kudoz?
http://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz-48.html


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 22:10
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Because Oct 15, 2008

Caryl Swift wrote:
And the ProZ.com search system is pretty much useless, if you ask me. And if you ask me, I'll tell you why.

Why, Samuel...


Because the results show the subject line of the post, not the subject line of the thread, and the results show multiple posts from a single thread without indicating that they belong to the same thread.


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Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:10
French to English
Forum search results display Oct 15, 2008

Samuel Murray wrote:
Because the results show the subject line of the post, not the subject line of the thread, and the results show multiple posts from a single thread without indicating that they belong to the same thread.

When I do a search, the results show:
Col 1 - the forum
Col 2 - the topic (thread subject line)
Col 3 - the title (post subject line)
...etc.

Lord knows I'm happy enough to criticise the site when it deserves it, but this is unwarranted.

That said, I do have issues with the logic behind how the forum search is presented, and not least with how the devil one is supposed to search for a post containing term A AND term B. But I gave up long ago expecting any improvements that weren't directly revenue-generating, which is why I dropped paying membership. But I digress....


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 22:10
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Perhaps I'm using the wrong search? Oct 15, 2008

Charlie Bavington wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
Because the results show the subject line of the post, not the subject line of the thread, and the results show multiple posts from a single thread without indicating that they belong to the same thread.

hen I do a search, the results show:
Col 1 - the forum
Col 2 - the topic (thread subject line)
Col 3 - the title (post subject line)
...etc.


Perhaps we're using two different search pages.

At the top right of this page (and every page on ProZ.com) is a box labelled "Search ProZ.com". Click it and you get a number of options. Deselect all except for "Forums". Do a search. The results are as follows:

Col 1 - an icon
Col 2 - the post's subject line
Col 3 - a line or two from the post
Col 4 - the subforum
Col 5 - the date of the post

Where do you get your results from?


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Marie-Hélène Hayles  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:10
Italian to English
+ ...
Try Community/Forum search Oct 15, 2008

Samuel Murray wrote:

Where do you get your results from?


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