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Personal Attacks on ProZ Forums
Thread poster: xxxCHENOUMI
xxxCHENOUMI  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
Jun 20, 2003

Dear Moderators,

It has become conspicuous in this recent thread http://www.proz.com/topic/11831,
the vile way in which some members attack others for their opinions.

Resorting to name-calling is an admission of personal defeat and failure. I am therefore not upset but gratified to see the attackers outdone in arguments!

I will never condone the trivializing of grammar errors nor will I accept the trivializing of this site.

I can be very passionate about my convictions in language matters and else, but rest assured that my passion will never culminate into personal attacks nor explode in profanities.

There is one blatant profanity that has escaped your attention in this thread. To protect the integrity and the *professional* image of Proz.com, I would appreciate it if you could prevent such personal attacks from reoccurring and bar troublemakers from disparaging against others when they don't have valid arguments to present...

Respectfully yours,

[Edited at 2003-06-20 19:39]


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Vesna Zivcic  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:13
German to Croatian
+ ...
Contact the forum moderator Jun 20, 2003

Hi!

I suggest that you contact the moderator of this forum who can settle the affair. Perhaps he isn't aware that anything is going on.

Best regards,


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:13
English to German
+ ...
We're looking into it Jun 20, 2003

Hi Chenoumi,
Thanks for raising the issue; I have cross-posted it on the moderators' list.

Can you please contact me through my profile, pointing out which posting you found offensive? Although I have followed that thread (without getting involved), I did not see a post that I would have considered a "blatant profanity", but that's my personal perspective, of course. I agree that the way in which some of the participants addressed each other doesn't fit the "lighter side" of things.

Note that I do not moderate that forum.

Best regards, Ralf


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xxxCHENOUMI  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The profanity is worse. Jun 20, 2003

Dear Vesna and Ralf,

Thank you for your concern and suggestions.
I have to say that the personal attacks - veiled or direct - which have started since Saturday, have left me totally indifferent.

I don't privately use profanities in my daily life. I don't see why I have to "digest" scatological language in a thread, along with grammatical aberrations.

Besides, in netiquettes elsewhere on decent sites, such language is prohibited and rules are strictly and impartially enforced by moderators.

Best regards,
Sandra
P.S. I only wish that moderators were as preemptively acting to lock the above-referenced thread as in the present case. Such an adequate measure would have prevented people from venting again and again, personal anger, frustrations and profanities. Great move here, although I would not have responded to persistent attacks, unsanitized language and innuendos.


[Edited at 2003-06-22 01:09]


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xxxPaulaMac
French to English
+ ...
Yikes, tone it down! Jun 20, 2003

CHENOUMI wrote:

Dear Moderators,

It has become conspicuous in this recent thread http://www.proz.com/topic/11831,
the vile way in which some members attack others for their opinions.

Resorting to name-calling is an admission of personal defeat and failure. I am therefore not upset but gratified to see the attackers outdone in arguments!

I will never condone the trivializing of grammar errors nor will I accept the trivializing of this site.

I can be very passionate about my convictions in language matters and else, but rest assured that my passion will never culminate into personal attacks nor explode in profanities.

There is one blatant profanity that has escaped your attention in this thread. To protect the integrity and the *professional* image of Proz.com, I would appreciate it if you could prevent such personal attacks from reoccurring and bar troublemakers from disparaging against others when they don't have valid arguments to present...

Respectfully yours,

[Edited at 2003-06-20 19:39]


I really don't see the need for all this indignation. I read through the postings, and find them quite mild, given that people are expressing opinions, as you suggested in your first post. BTW, I think you mean "grammatical" errors, rather than "grammar" errors - the former is an adjective, the latter a noun.


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Edward Potter  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:13
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Don't cut down the tree please Jun 20, 2003

Just trim the branches. I just spent a few minutes reading the thread.
There is a big debate going on there and one guy, in his passion, threw out one strong word. Delete that one word and we will be okay.

My two cents: I do wish some of those posters over there would stop being so petty. I have declined to post on that thread and get back to work.

Ed


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xxxPaul Roige
Spain
Local time: 09:13
English to Spanish
+ ...
On typos and attitudes Jun 20, 2003

Both sides of the discussion had a point, both sides of the argument lost it.
Next time, let's contact the authors of that typo and tell them about it.... nicely. They should be grateful to us and may even give us work thereafter.
That worked for me once and I'm still in business with them.
Anyway...
P


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Marcus Malabad  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 09:13
Member (2002)
German to English
+ ...
Will said it best Jun 20, 2003

Much ado about nothing.

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Michele Johnson  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:13
German to English
+ ...
Perhaps blown out of proportion? Jun 20, 2003

I did follow the debate and have read all the postings. Let me say here straight away: I do not know what veiled threats Chenoumi may have received, perhaps even personally via email or other methods. So there could be more to the story than meets the eye, in which case investigation by moderators is certainly warranted.

That said, I do have to agree in general with Ralf. My reaction is: Is it automatically a personal attack because someone uses the word "bullshit"? And aren't we all adult enough here to use that word (admittedly in a heated debate)? Gosh, have you seen what kind of "profanity" turns up in Kudoz questions? Do we really need to have our integrity protected from a single word? And all this, in response to a grammatical error related to the usage of "it's/its"?

Did I miss something?

Respectfully,
Michele


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Elías Sauza  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 02:13
Member (2002)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Next time... Jun 20, 2003

[quote]Paul Roigé wrote:

Next time, let's contact the authors of that typo and tell them about it.... nicely. They should be grateful to us and may even give us work thereafter.
P

However, the intention of the opening posting was quite different from being nice...

The morale of the story to me is that before criticizing and mockering others, we should take a look at our own work first...

[Edited at 2003-06-20 21:46]

[Edited at 2003-06-21 19:12]


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RHELLER
United States
Local time: 02:13
French to English
+ ...
let's not make a "mountain out of a molehill" Jun 21, 2003

I agree with Michele who said:

" I do have to agree in general with Ralf. My reaction is: Is it automatically a personal attack because someone uses the word "bullshit"? And aren't we all adult enough here to use that word (admittedly in a heated debate)? Gosh, have you seen what kind of "profanity" turns up in KudoZ questions?"

I am in total agreement with Michele and Ralf and the others who are wondering what Sandra is talking about. I glossed over the forum in question and couldn't figure out what was so objectionable.

Get a grip!

Slang and profanity are part of LANGUAGE! They help us to better express ourselves. As long as the words were not directed at Sandra in a personal attack, I say "live and let live".

Rita


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sylver  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:13
English to French
Being the one... Jun 21, 2003

CHENOUMI wrote:

Dear Moderators,

It has become conspicuous in this recent thread http://www.proz.com/topic/11831,
the vile way in which some members attack others for their opinions.

Resorting to name-calling is an admission of personal defeat and failure. I am therefore not upset but gratified to see the attackers outdone in arguments!

I will never condone the trivializing of grammar errors nor will I accept the trivializing of this site.

I can be very passionate about my convictions in language matters and else, but rest assured that my passion will never culminate into personal attacks nor explode in profanities.

There is one blatant profanity that has escaped your attention in this thread. To protect the integrity and the *professional* image of Proz.com, I would appreciate it if you could prevent such personal attacks from reoccurring and bar troublemakers from disparaging against others when they don't have valid arguments to present...

Respectfully yours,

who posted the word "Bullshit", I would like to reply to this covert personal attack. Nicely expressed, but what Chenoumi (sorry if I get your name wrong) is asking here, is that Proz restrain my access to this site! Personal attacks?

I can be very passionate about my convictions in language matters and else, but rest assured that my passion will never culminate into personal attacks...


Sure... hum, what's that word? Oh yeah! Hypocrisy.

I did not *attack* an other member for his opinion by the way. The main point of my remark was that, althought that member -like Chenoumi- was intolerant toward others' mistakes, he was nevertheless not "mistake proof" himself.

I can accept a "no mistakes" policy from someone who does "no mistakes", if such a person really exist. But certainly not from someone whose own promotional materials contain obvious typos.

I find it rather funny that after all the "it's inexcusable", you do not see the irony of mistakes such as those. May I suggest that it is "inexcusable" only when it serves your point?

As to having "no valid argument to present", I leave it to less biased people to evaluate whether my arguments did make sense or not.

It appears throughout your posts that you are mixing several concepts, namely: "name calling", "profanity", "vulgarity" and "slang". As you claim to revere linguistic accuracy, I would like to bring up the following commonly agreed English definitions:

"Name-calling" refers to insult(s) aimed toward an opponent. Not mere use of "bad word". Writing "Hypocrit!" would be "name calling", for intance, if the term was addressed to a specific person.

"Profanity" is the use of profane language, profane being "showing disrespect or contempt for sacred things; irreverent". "holy crap" could be profanity.

"Vulgarity" is "characterized by a lack of culture, refinement, taste, restraint, sensitivity". Any "bad word" come under this heading.

"Slang": "highly informal speech that is outside conventional or standard usage and consists both of coined words and phrases and of new or extended meanings attached to established terms: slang develops from the attempt to find fresh and vigorous, colorful, pungent, or humorous expression, and generally either passes into disuse or comes to have a more formal status"

The word "Bullshit", is defined by the Webster as a slang term (meaning:"foolish, insincere, exaggerated, or boastful talk; nonsense"), whereas insults are listed as "vulgar".

So according to formal definitions of the Webster dictionary, the thread was free of "name calling", "profanity" and "vulgarity", but did contain "slang".

I really don't like "Oh! How rude of you!" lily-the-white type of comments, especially as you spent half of the thread promoting your "I'm not native, but I at least, I myself, don't make mistakes", and the other half on covert harsh criticism for people who dare say that, sometimes, they make mistakes and that they are nevertheless doing OK.

Cheers,
Sylvain

(By the way, the "native issue" was not at all in the original post. You just brought it up out of the blue to advertise yourself.)


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