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Is it possible that all the forum postings appear immediately?
Thread poster: xxxchance
xxxchance
French to Chinese
+ ...
Aug 5, 2003

Dear Henry and Moderators,

“ Forum postings from platinum members appear immediately. Postings from non-platinum members are checked before being made visible. Most postings are vetted within 12 hours. ”

I wonder why postings from non-platinum members need to be checked before being made visible? Is it possible that all the postings appear immediately? I think it would be highly appreciated by all.

Thank you.


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Yongmei Liu  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:33
English to Chinese
+ ...
Having to wait a couple of hours for your post to show Aug 5, 2003

hinders the discussion, if we realize most members are non-paying members and they have much to say, too.

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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 16:33
SITE FOUNDER
Postings are 60% platinum members and therefore immediate Aug 5, 2003

There was a time when all posts appeared immediately, and the forums work better now.

Note that about 60% of forum postings now come from platinum members, and therefore appear immediately. For the other 40% of postings, the vetting delay has a few benefits:

- It curtails abuse the forums by advertisers

- It makes it difficult for people to register under false names only to make a point

- The vetting delays break up heated exchanges, allowing cooler heads to prevail

So we intend to continue vetting posts from non-paying members.

Since vetting is done not only by staff but also by moderators, the average delay is shorter than 12 hours. The average time will decrease further as we take additional steps, such as notifying moderators immediately of new posts to be vetted. A 2-hour maximum is the target for posts to be vetted.

For those who want unvetted access to the forums, we offer the option of "community" partial platinum membership for $30/yr. More info is available on the upgrading page: http://www.proz.com/plat/


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Victoria Jordán  Identity Verified
German to Spanish
+ ...
ID verified members, also vetted? Aug 5, 2003

[quote]Henry wrote:

For the other 40% of postings, the vetting delay has a few benefits:

- It curtails abuse the forums by advertisers

- It makes it difficult for people to register under false names only to make a point.


And what about members of Proz whose identity has been verified? I personally think that you must have your reasons to think so, BUT sometimes exceptions must be taken into account.


Obviously ID verified members won't normally advertise on this website, neither are they registered under a false name.

- The vetting delays break up heated exchanges, allowing cooler heads to prevail

This reason has no sense to me. Why should we think that by vetting delays cooler heads will prevail in the forums?

Who can say where the line division betwenn cool heads and aggressive is?

Sorry to say, but I can't see the logic of this reasoning.


"So we intend to continue vetting posts from non-paying members"

That's the question: to pay or not to pay

I think it is unfair.


Victoria


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 22:33
English to German
+ ...
Hands-on experience... Aug 5, 2003

Hi Victoria,

And what about members of Proz whose identity has been verified? I personally think that you must have your reasons to think so, BUT sometimes exceptions must be taken into account.


Obviously ID verified members won't normally advertise on this website, neither are they registered under a false name.

I believe that's a valid comment, but I beg to differ as far as other comments are concerned:

- The vetting delays break up heated exchanges, allowing cooler heads to prevail

This reason has no sense to me. Why should we think that by vetting delays cooler heads will prevail in the forums?

Simply because forum moderators can reject offensive postings, or ask the author(s) to reconsider before vetting such posts. Of course we do get aggressive/offensive posts by Platinum members, too, but many of the troubles we've had over the last 12 months were caused by non-paying members. Having spent a few Sunday afternoons in front of the screen, frantically trying to control things, I certainly welcome the possibility of a circuit-breaker.

Who can say where the line division betwenn cool heads and aggressive is?

We draw the line where personal attacks on others come into play, or where other site rules are violated. Personal attacks are the most frequent cause for intervention, I'm afraid...

"So we intend to continue vetting posts from non-paying members"

That's the question: to pay or not to pay

I think it is unfair.

What's unfair about it? Remember: ProZ.com is not only a community, but also a business. Many members benefit from using the site - quite a few members see it fit to support that business financially (myself included). I think it would be unfair not to grant paying members some advantages. Of course, the site needs to strike the right balance between free services and paying-member benefits, but that's not an issue of fairness, but of sound business sense.

Best regards, Ralf


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 16:33
SITE FOUNDER
good point Aug 6, 2003

Victoria Jordán wrote:

The vetting delays break up heated exchanges, allowing cooler heads to prevail

This reason has no sense to me. Why should we think that by vetting delays cooler heads will prevail in the forums?


Not quite sure why it works but it does. I assume it is because the barbs go back and forth over hours rather than minutes, giving people more time to cool down. (Maybe that is why mothers in some parts of the world tell their kids to "count-to-ten" when they are angry...)

About the VIDed members, we will try at some point allowing them to post immediately. If there are no problems, it will stay. Thanks for the suggestion.


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PAS  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:33
English to Polish
+ ...
e-mail Aug 6, 2003

Some forum posts are desperate pleas for help on a number of topics - mostly technical, it seems to me.

One way to get around the waiting period is simply to send the asker an e-mail. You can post your answer on the forum for the benefit of future generations, but if somebody needs help in a hurry, it's probably quickest to contact him/her directly.

Just my 2 (euro)cents

Pawel Skalinski


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Narasimhan Raghavan  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:03
English to Tamil
+ ...
Can you back up your assertion with statistics, Ralf? Aug 6, 2003

Now that you have said that many of the misuse cases originate from non-platinum members, it would be better if the assertion is quantified. How about taking a period of one year and see the relative percentages of the misuse by both the classes of members? I will say this at the outset. You are having the full right to favour the paying members. No quarrel if you just say so. But giving other reasons such as irresponsible behaviour on the part of free members require to be backed up by statistics. Personally I don't mind if my postings are vetted. In fact I am relieved by this provision. I am indeed thankful that once an improved title was given to my posting by the moderator. In fact platinum members have to carry a bigger burden as their postings come on immediately. I look forward to the time when the delay in the appearance of our postings is reduced to the minimum.
Ralf Lemster wrote:

Hi Victoria,

And what about members of Proz whose identity has been verified? I personally think that you must have your reasons to think so, BUT sometimes exceptions must be taken into account.


Obviously ID verified members won't normally advertise on this website, neither are they registered under a false name.

I believe that's a valid comment, but I beg to differ as far as other comments are concerned:

- The vetting delays break up heated exchanges, allowing cooler heads to prevail

This reason has no sense to me. Why should we think that by vetting delays cooler heads will prevail in the forums?

Simply because forum moderators can reject offensive postings, or ask the author(s) to reconsider before vetting such posts. Of course we do get aggressive/offensive posts by Platinum members, too, but many of the troubles we've had over the last 12 months were caused by non-paying members. Having spent a few Sunday afternoons in front of the screen, frantically trying to control things, I certainly welcome the possibility of a circuit-breaker.

Who can say where the line division betwenn cool heads and aggressive is?

We draw the line where personal attacks on others come into play, or where other site rules are violated. Personal attacks are the most frequent cause for intervention, I'm afraid...

"So we intend to continue vetting posts from non-paying members"

That's the question: to pay or not to pay

I think it is unfair.

What's unfair about it? Remember: ProZ.com is not only a community, but also a business. Many members benefit from using the site - quite a few members see it fit to support that business financially (myself included). I think it would be unfair not to grant paying members some advantages. Of course, the site needs to strike the right balance between free services and paying-member benefits, but that's not an issue of fairness, but of sound business sense.

Best regards, Ralf


[quote]Ralf Lemster wrote:

Simply because forum moderators can reject offensive postings, or ask the author(s) to reconsider before vetting such posts. Of course we do get aggressive/offensive posts by Platinum members, too, but many of the troubles we've had over the last 12 months were caused by non-paying members. Having spent a few Sunday afternoons in front of the screen, frantically trying to control things, I certainly welcome the possibility of a circuit-breaker.


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 22:33
English to German
+ ...
No statistics, I'm afraid Aug 6, 2003

Hi Narasimhan,
On a practical note, can I ask you to quote only the necessary parts of a post? Thanks.

Now that you have said that many of the misuse cases originate from non-platinum members, it would be better if the assertion is quantified. How about taking a period of one year and see the relative percentages of the misuse by both the classes of members?

I certainly don't have any statistics - Henry might have, but I doubt it, TBH. Thing is, we have had to deal with a number of cases where members without any respect for site rules simply created a new profile once an existing one had been blocked. Vetting rights help to keep a check on this.

I will say this at the outset. You are having the full right to favour the paying members. No quarrel if you just say so. But giving other reasons such as irresponsible behaviour on the part of free members require to be backed up by statistics.

Fair enough, but I don't even think the number of cases would be statistically relevant. What is relevant is the amount of time spent by moderators (volunteers, remember?) to sort out situations created by members who were not committed to the site, either by a paying membership or VID. I don't keep a time sheet for my work on ProZ.com, but I hate to waste time on such problems.

I look forward to the time when the delay in the appearance of our postings is reduced to the minimum.

Again, I don't have statistical data, but I believe you will find that most posts are vetted pretty quickly, simply because forum mods keep an active eye for new posts. Obviously, this doesn't work on a 24/7 basis, but we also cover among mods in the case of absence.

If you have an urgent posting, have a quick look if the relevant forum moderator is online - just send an Instant Message if the "P" in the profile is green.

Best regards, Ralf


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Narasimhan Raghavan  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:03
English to Tamil
+ ...
Thanks Ralf Aug 6, 2003

My posting came up in a record short time. Considering that the moderators are volunteers having their own business to look after, I should say that you are all doing a fine job. My thanks to you and Henry.
As for including only the relevant portion in the quotes, I tried to do so in my last posting. I deleted the paras to which I was not replying. But they came back at the time of clicking the post reply button. Is there any other way of doing this?


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two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 18:33
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
Neutralizing "hit-and-run" profiles Aug 6, 2003

chance wrote:
I wonder why postings from non-platinum members need to be checked before being made visible? Is it possible that all the postings appear immediately? I think it would be highly appreciated by all.


I think the average paying member is not different from the average non-paying member, neither personally nor professionally.

On the other hand, there are fringe elements weird enough to create a profile to insult someone from the anonimity, or to advertise some commercial purpose, or to make some bombastic statement.

In my opinion, the vetting process aims mainly to neutralizing this factor. A lot of such messages get blocked before being published, and in the end their authors give up after failing to get them across.

Unfortunately non-Plats have to wait a bit to get their words published. Green-lighting VIDded non-Plats looks like a good idea. Besides, forum mods try to check for new postings as often as possible to keep this delay at a minimum.

Regards,
Enrique Cavalitto


[Edited at 2003-08-06 19:13]


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 22:33
English to German
+ ...
Forum postings by VID'ed members now appear immediately Sep 9, 2003

As announced by Jason in this thread, postings by non-Platinum members whose identity has been verified now generally go "live" without vetting.

Thanks to Jason for implementing it, and may I add that this is an enhancement that was unanimously supported by moderators.

Best regards, Ralf


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Graciela Carlyle  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:33
English to Spanish
+ ...
however... Sep 10, 2003

I am a Platinum member with VID and I'm getting the following message when I post:
"Your message has been stored in the database.
Note: Your message will be reviewed by a moderator before it is made visible."

Either I missed something or there is something not working properly yet.

Best regards,
Grace.

pd (added) well, and now this one worked fine!!


[Edited at 2003-09-10 21:00]


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 22:33
English to German
+ ...
Works as designed Sep 10, 2003

Hi Graciela,
Either I missed something or there is something not working properly yet.

Additional filters have been put in place; therefore, on the odd occasion, even Platinum posts may require vetting. Can't tell you exactly what may have triggered it for your posting, but it's vetted now.

Cheers, Ralf


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