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Suggestion for a Bilingual Forum as a Focal Point for All Languages From and Into English
Thread poster: xxxCHENOUMI
xxxCHENOUMI  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
Aug 13, 2004

Hi,
Sometimes, we come across bilingual information e.g. http://qqcvd.webiciel.com/index.php?asuite=SAPRR&init=S that would be useful to both English-speaking and French-speaking members.

A bilingual forum EN < > FR for instance would avoid duplicating a thread or useful information in both English and French or in another related forum. Another advantage of such a forum would be to allow participants - on other occasions - to freely express themselves in the language of their preference.

Respectfully submitted.

P.S. The same idea could extend to other SCs. All SCs, and languages would use this unique bilingual forum to post bilingual information or bilingual comments on any given theme. To do so, the thread poster would only have to indicate the specific language pair in the Topic Subject line:

EN < > SP
EN < > FR
EN < > DE
EN < > FI
EN < > CH
EN < > JP
etc...




[Edited at 2004-08-13 10:03]


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Crystal Samples  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:43
French to English
+ ...
Interesting idea Aug 13, 2004

This would definitely be something that I would be interested in. I often end up posting my messages twice (in French and then in English) to get all my bases covered so that my questions and comments will have a greater chance of being seen, answered and/or commented on.

I've noticed also that some of our members will write their posts in their native language, regardless of the established language of the forum or thread, apologetically explaining that they feel the need to express themselves in the language in which they feel most comfortable. In a bilingual forum, these apologies would not be necessary.

It's an interesting proposal. Let's see if we have enough French-English bilinguals who'd like to give it a try. I feel that this suggestion would also be useful among Spanish-English bilinguals, who appear to be numerous on this site.



[Edited at 2004-08-13 17:23]


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Javier Herrera
Spanish
Very good idea Aug 13, 2004

[quote]CHENOUMI wrote:


P.S. The same idea could extend to other SCs. All SCs, and languages would use this unique bilingual forum to post bilingual information or bilingual comments on any given theme. To do so, the thread poster would only have to indicate the specific language pair in the Topic Subject line:

EN < > SP
EN < > FR
EN < > DE
EN < > FI
EN < > CH
EN < > JP
etc...


[quote]

But who's going to moderate a forum in which ALL those languages are used?
It would be better to have separate ones, one EN < > FR, another EN< >ES, etc.


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Henk Peelen  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 08:43
Member (2002)
German to Dutch
+ ...
Why actually? Aug 13, 2004

Sorry, but I don't see why.
For those who manage both languages of the concerned pair a monolingual forum in one of the languages will do.
For those who don't manage one of the concerned languages, the forum is partly unreadable.

I very well know that one expresses himself much more conveniently and effectively in a language he manages (especially his mother tongue), and secondly I very well know the effort to put a posting on more fora, but the result is that the forum stays transparant for all people who manage the concerned language.

Next to that, we should be cautious not to create a complete jungle of fora.
Let's talk English on the general fora, Spanish on the Spanish forum, German on the German forum, Chinese on the Chines forum, ... and so on, unless one really wants to ask or say something on a forum which language he doesn't manage.

Of course EN FR translators are a subgroup of which the members would like to share topics which are less interesting to other subgroups, for instance the FR IT translators, but if they both should post their postings on separate fora instead of on the FR forum, a lot of info would be harder to find for other subgroups, for instance FR SP, FR GE, FR DU, FR RO and so on.

[Edited at 2004-08-13 11:51]


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Javier Herrera
Spanish
Because... Aug 13, 2004

Henk Peelen wrote:

Sorry, but I don't see why.
For those who manage both languages of the concerned pair a monolingual forum in one of the languages will do.
For those who don't manage one of the concerned languages, the forum is partly unreadable.

I very well know that one expresses himself much more conveniently and effectively in a language he manages (especially his mother tongue), and secondly I very well know the effort to put a posting on more fora, but the result is that the forum stays transparant for all people who manage the concerned language.

Next to that, we should be cautious not to create a complete jungle of fora.
Let's talk English on the general fora, Spanish on the Spanish forum, German on the German forum, Chinese on the Chines forum, ... and so on, unless one really wants to ask or say something on a forum which language he doesn't manage.



I feel language forums are a kind of 'reserved area'.
So many professionals have Spanish as a working language and in the Spanish forum the outstanding majority of participants are Spanish mother-tongue speakers.
Personally, I read the French forum a lot but never write in it and I suspect the same thing goes for many other people. I would feel more free to write in Spanish in a FRES forum.
Of course I'm not suggesting to replace the monolingual forums, but bilingual ones would encourage participation of a larger number of people and discussion of translational, linguistic and cultural aspects that apply only to the languages and countries concerned.
My thoughts


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Henk Peelen  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 08:43
Member (2002)
German to Dutch
+ ...
Of course! Aug 13, 2004

Javier Herrera wrote:

I feel language forums are a kind of 'reserved area'.
So many professionals have Spanish as a working language and in the Spanish forum the outstanding majority of participants are Spanish mother-tongue speakers.
Personally, I read the French forum a lot but never write in it and I suspect the same thing goes for many other people. I would feel more free to write in Spanish in a FRES forum.
Of course I'm not suggesting to replace the monolingual forums, but bilingual ones would encourage participation of a larger number of people and discussion of translational, linguistic and cultural aspects that apply only to the languages and countries concerned.
My thoughts



I very well know what you mean and fully agree with your first comment, but in my opinion people like you would enrich the French forum. Actually on the monolingual fora a lot of culture is exchanged. When for instance 20 FR XX fora would be created, the FR fora would suffer a big drain on resources. Secondly a lot of the FR XX now start to post their posting on three instead of two fora: the FR, the XX and the FR XX one. I'm afraid things get more less transparant this way.

What for you counts regarding the French forum, counts more or less for me regarding English and German. I read sometimes German postings, but seldomly react or post a new thread, for a great part because of low skills in producing German (and English as well) and low familiartiy with the concerning cultures.
However, I guess people like you and me must overcome their reserve and just try, because "Übung macht den Meister", "practice makes perfect", "oefening baart kunst", "el ejercicio hace maestro", "övning ger färdighet", "en forgeant on devient forgeron".

I think a compromise could work: on the concerning monolingual fora you have the possibility to give your posting a special bilingual remark (just like "off topic"), which results in:
1) the posting automatically appears in both concerning monolingual fora
2) people who are not interested in a concerning language combination, have the ability to make these postings invisible for them. (Maybe the same should count for the real monolingual postings, so on a certain moment one can choose to see the real all postings within for instance the French forum, only the real monolingual ones, only the FR ES ones, or whatever combination s/he should want.


But I think real new bilingual fora would make the fora corner less transparant.


Don't know whether my parallel really applies, but when you think the world community to be Proz.com, the monolingual fora are countries and the "multilingual" translators international commuters. Participating aids cultural exchange. A too big diversification would adverse this.

CHENOUMI will write:

There is nothing "wrong" or "irrelevant" with my suggestion. Else, I wouldn't be spending my time making it.


LOL!
I like things that make live easier. This causal connection shows "real comprehension".

But ... those who don't share your ideas, spend also some time, so we're 1:1

What's your next funny bet?
Unfortanetly this thread is closed, else we could find out who's most clever and persistent, and have fun.

[Edited at 2004-08-21 12:35]


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Magda Dziadosz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 08:43
Member (2004)
English to Polish
+ ...
Added value? Aug 13, 2004


Sometimes, we come across bilingual information e.g. http://qqcvd.webiciel.com/index.php?asuite=SAPRR&init=S that would be useful to both English-speaking and French-speaking members.


Are you sure this is really bilingual info? The whole website is maintained in French only (correctly me if I’m wrong, but I failed to see an English version button) and yes, it includes some English acronyms as well, but the additional explanations are again given in French. So in fact this resource is useful only to those who understand French, isn’t it?. The right place to post it would actually be GlossPost section or the French forum which is certainly frequented by all who translate from and into French.

I’m not sure if I understand in what way a bilingual forum(s) could add value to what we already have. And how one forum for all language pairs (as suggested by Chenoumi) could be *billingual* - the idea behind establishing non-English forums was exactly to avoid a mess created by postings in many different languages

The specific language forums are there to enable communication in a language of choice. So, sticking to Javier’s example, you can post a message relevant to FR-ES translators in French OR Spanish forum, depending in which language you feel more comfortable. No need to repost it twice or three times (if bilingual forum exists) because “the base” will be the same. Also I fail to see how bilingual forum would act as “a Focal Point for All Languages From and Into English” (Chenoumi) and “would encourage participation of a larger number of people and discussion of translational, linguistic and cultural aspects that apply only to the languages and countries concerned” (Javier) – to the contrary, the participation would be limited only to those who are comfortable with two, three, five or more languages. A focal point for all who translate from and into English is....English, isn’t it

And a few thoughts on reposting: some colleagues have a tendency to post the same messages to several forums. While it makes sense to cross-post if you need an attention of, say, ALL French-speaking translators and ALL Spanish speaking translators, however if you want to address specifically FR-ES community there is no need to post it twice, because your "targets" will get it twice in their maiboxes and for the rest the message will be irrelevant.

My 2c,
Magda


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xxxCHENOUMI  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Dear Enthused #1: It already works beautifully! See >> www.proz.com/topic/18435 Aug 15, 2004

sindee21 wrote:
It's an interesting proposal.


Hi Sindee,

I like smart people with vision, broad understanding, receptiveness of new ideas and positive attitude. Sorry for your short-lived enthusiasm.;)

The idea of a bilingual thread/forum is not new. In fact, I had implemented it in my topic http://www.proz.com/topic/18435
Off topic: For you, Merline - Pour toi, Merline : Prayer request for an ailing colleague (Bilingual Thread) Feb 16


For months, the title mistakenly read at the end (Bilingual Forum)... until I recently changed it to... Thread. I was perhaps way in advance of my ideas and anticipating this very topic.

Go and see how beautiful it is!

Regards and Thanks,
Sandra


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xxxCHENOUMI  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
New Ideas Aug 16, 2004



"The only new ideas that are not subject to our skepticism or suspicion are our own"
Author: Cullen Hightower

I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.
Author: John Cage

Daring ideas are like chessmen moved forward; they may be beaten, but they may start a winning game.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


----------------------------------------------------------------The hardest part of gaining any new idea is sweeping out the false idea occupying that niche.
- Robert Heinlein



----------------------------------------------------------------
A man's mind stretched by a new idea can never go back to its original dimensions.
- Oliver Wendall Holmes, Jr.

Get a purge for your brain. It will do better than for your stomach.
- Michel Eyquem de Montaigne


----------------------------------------------------------------


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xxxCHENOUMI  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Dear Enthused #2: Sorry for your short-lived experience! Aug 16, 2004

Javier Herrera wrote:
Very good idea


Hola Javier,

Gracias por tu sentido de apreciación, pero bien hubiera hecho callármela...:)

But who's going to moderate a forum in which ALL those languages are used?
It would be better to have separate ones, one EN < > FR, another EN< >ES, etc.


1) On the contrary, that's when it'll get "messy" with different 'separate' ones. What I was thinking as "focal point" was precisely to avoid that. 2) There already are - in most cases - a moderator for each language pair. So, there wouldn't be "many new" "moderators" in that hypothetical case.
No need to further discuss. Case "officially" closed.

============================================

"People see the wrongness in an idea much quicker that the rightness."

-- Charles Kettering

Collective judgement of new ideas is so often wrong that it is arguable that progress depends on individuals being free to back their own judgement despite collective disapproval.
- W.A. Lewis

New opinions are always suspected, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common.

- John Locke



[Edited at 2004-08-19 05:10]


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two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 03:43
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
¿What does all this mean? Aug 16, 2004

CHENOUMI wrote:

"The only new ideas that are not subject to our skepticism or suspicion are our own"
Author: Cullen Hightower

I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.
Author: John Cage

Daring ideas are like chessmen moved forward; they may be beaten, but they may start a winning game.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


----------------------------------------------------------------The hardest part of gaining any new idea is sweeping out the false idea occupying that niche.
- Robert Heinlein



----------------------------------------------------------------
A man's mind stretched by a new idea can never go back to its original dimensions.
- Oliver Wendall Holmes, Jr.

Get a purge for your brain. It will do better than for your stomach.
- Michel Eyquem de Montaigne


----------------------------------------------------------------


I fail to see the purpose of these quotations (and the other to follow. I dislike irony.

A new idea may be great. but it can also be wrong or irrelevant.

It shoud be evaluated for it own value, and this lecture adds no light on the idea's merit, it only clutters the issue.

Enrique Cavalitto


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xxxCHENOUMI  Identity Verified
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Just some efforts of understanding or Give up trying to. :-) Aug 17, 2004

two2tango wrote:

¿What does all this mean?


I don't know. I didn't author the quotes.
Just enjoy them as I did.

I fail to see the purpose of these quotations (and the other to follow.


It seems that moderators "fail to see and understand" lots of things in this topic. Why is that?

A new idea may be great. but it can also be wrong or irrelevant.


I notice that 'moderators' use the term irrelevant a lot when it comes to some new ideas. What, in your view, makes a suggestion "irrelevant" on ProZ.com?

There is nothing "wrong" or "irrelevant" with my suggestion. Else, I wouldn't be spending my time making it.


[Edited at 2004-08-19 05:11]


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two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 03:43
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
Let´s evaluate on merits, not with slogans Aug 17, 2004

CHENOUMI wrote:

two2tango wrote:

¿What does all this mean?


I don't know. I didn't author the quotes.
Just enjoy them as I did.

I fail to see the purpose of these quotations (and the other to follow.


It seems that moderators "fail to see and understand" lots of things in this topic. Why is that?


Well, I asked why you inserted quotations in a thread about a new forum and you answered "I don't know".

Why should I understand your reason when you yourself don't know them?

CHENOUMI wrote:
A new idea may be great. but it can also be wrong or irrelevant.


I notice that 'moderators' use the term irrelevant a lot when it comes to some new ideas. What, in your view, makes a suggestion "irrelevant" on ProZ.com?

There is nothing "wrong" or "irrelevant" with my suggestion. Else, I wouldn't be spending my time making it.



First of all, I did not say that your idea was irrelevant but that any new idea could be either good, bad or irrelevant.

Anyone can have some bright ideas, some that are wrong, some that are neither wrong nor useful (that's what I mean by irrelevant in this context)

I fail to see why you should be different from the rest of us, in the sense that an idea of yours MUST be good.

And again, I did not say that the idea was not good, but that it should be defended on its merits, not whith propaganda and slogans.

Enrique

[Edited at 2004-08-18 12:12]


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