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In what order the posts appear on the'Home page and the 'Most recent posts' page, and why 'locked...
Thread poster: juvera
juvera  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:36
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Jul 10, 2006

...and why 'post locked' doesn't appear on the Home page list?

In fact, if I open some of the "locked" posts from the Home page, I might not realise from the last reply that it is locked.

On a previous thread Maria Karra wrote:

Actually the date/time of the last post might be irrelevant; it seems that the topics on the home page are listed based on when the thread started (i.e. time of the first post). In fact above that box it says "Recent topics in translator forums", not "Recent posts..."


The list certainly doesn't change in accordance of the latest posts added to a topic, as Maria says above, and in any case, I am not sure if that would be a good idea.

It would be fine, if it was listed in accordance of when the thread started, but it cannot be, because in that case these lists would remain in the same order, with new posts added on top and the oldest ones disappearing to make space for the new ones.

The top quarter or so is more or less stable, but the rest is not.

I usually only look at the 'Most recent posts' list and tend to be a day or two late, trying to catch up when I have time.

I find it exasperating that the list keeps shifting like sand and I have to search for those I haven't read. I try to use 'landmarks' like differently coloured 'off topic' subjects, but it doesn't help, because they may have moved or disappeared all together from the page by the time I try to pick up where I left it. (I mean, other ones surrounding it may still be there, but not the one I was using as a marker.)

Any comments?


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 15:36
Member (2001)
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Threads listing Jul 10, 2006

Dear Juvera,

I will try to explain the system used to list threads in various pages of the site.


* * * * *
HOME PAGE and MOST RECENT POSTS

In the "Home" page and the "Most recent posts" page, the thread are listed in strictly chronological order, according to their opening date and time (this is NOT influenced by subsequent postings).


Notes:

1. In these two pages, there is never any change in the listing order.

2. The Home page do not show when a thread is locked.

3. "Most recent posts" here should be intended as "Most recent new threads", with reference to their order of listing.

4. Some forums do not produce an entry in the home page, but they do in the "Most recent posts" page. This is a static attribute, assigned to each forum when it is created, and not change according to the various threads.


* * * * *
LISTING IN EACH FORUM

In each forum page, the thread listing is updated every time there is a new posting, which brings up the whole thread.

This page. obviously, may have a different order each time there is a new posting and any particular thread cannot be used as a reliable reference.


* * * * *


I hope not to have overlooked anything.


bye
Gianfranco




[Edited at 2006-07-10 16:03]


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Dyran Altenburg  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:36
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Another question Jul 10, 2006

Gianfranco Manca wrote:
I hope not to have overlooked anything.


Where did the shoutbox go?

That used to be a good place to look for interesting threads.

--
Dyran


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 12:36
SITE FOUNDER
If you are referring to the "new" box... Jul 10, 2006

Dyran Altenburg wrote:
Gianfranco Manca wrote:
I hope not to have overlooked anything.

Where did the shoutbox go?

That used to be a good place to look for interesting threads.

If you are referring to the "new" box... things are put in there manually, and they expire naturally after a week.


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Dyran Altenburg  Identity Verified
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Local time: 12:36
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A rose, by any other name... Jul 10, 2006

Henry wrote:
If you are referring to the "new" box... things are put in there manually, and they expire naturally after a week.


So, if no one puts things in there, the whole box dissapears after a week?

Interesting.

--
Dyran


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juvera  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:36
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TOPIC STARTER
That explains it. Jul 10, 2006

Gianfranco wrote:

* * * * *
HOME PAGE and MOST RECENT POSTS

In the "Home" page and the "Most recent posts" page, the thread are listed in strictly chronological order, according to their opening date and time (this is NOT influenced by subsequent postings).

Notes:

1. In these two pages, there is never any change in the listing order.

2. The Home page do not show when a thread is locked.

3. "Most recent posts" here should be intended as "Most recent new threads", with reference to their order of listing.

4. Some forums do not produce an entry in the home page, but they do in the "Most recent posts" page. This is a static attribute, assigned to each forum when it is created, and not change according to the various threads.

* * * * *
LISTING IN EACH FORUM

In each forum page, the thread listing is updated every time there is a new posting, which brings up the whole thread.

This page. obviously, may have a different order each time there is a new posting and any particular thread cannot be used as a reliable reference.


points 2, 3, 4, I knew and understood. Point 2. may be a minor problem, but not for me.
Point 4. doesn't worry anybody, I assume.

point 1. yes, I just checked, the chronological order was maintained right through. But there was one thing which caused my confusion and the phenomena I described. The answer is here:

Henry wrote:

If you are referring to the "new" box... things are put in there manually, and they expire naturally after a week.


So, as Gianfranco wrote, the new threads are listed in chronological order. Some gets answers day after day for quite some time and remain on this list until they get crowded out, while others die a natural death after a week for lack of contribution, often without reaching the bottom of the page. These are the ones giving a changing face to the list, and I must say I didn't try to figure out how and why, I just observed it.

I can't think of a better alternative system, so I'll have to try harder to keep up,

Thanks for both of you.
Judith


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
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Clarification Jul 10, 2006

The "New" box mentioned by Henry (what Dyran called the "shoutbox") is a little box that appears on the home page, on the top right corner.

The items visible on it must be placed manually by the site staff and they are used exclusively to attract the attention to announcement for new features. After 7 days they expire automatically, as Henry specified.

They are not strictly part of the forum system, even if they contain a link to a forum thread, and that's why I forgot to mention it.
The box may contain one or, occasionally, more than one item referring to some forum threads, but they are not meant, in general, as an efficient method to keep track of forum discussions.

To keep track of all, or most of the new features, you could use this page http://www.proz.com/?sp=new_features accessing it from the option "What's new", visible on the first menu "Home".


bye
Gianfranco


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juvera  Identity Verified
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In that case, Jul 10, 2006

what makes some "Most recent posts" page threads disappear from the middle of the page so to speak? I thought Henry's explanation fits the phenomena, but apparently it doesn't.

It is not too difficult to notice, make a note of the "Off topic" blue ones, and follow their passage for a few days. A couple of them may start off with - say - 4 other threads between them. Two days later they may turn up next to each other. What happened to those in between?

One thing might, as it happened today, (what a coincidence!) they disappear without trace a couple of days and a dozen or so posts later, if they never existed, like this one;

http://www.proz.com/topic/50986

That possibility wasn't explained either, although to be fair, I think this is not the usual occurence.

Regards,
Judith


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Derek Gill Franßen  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:36
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Posts showing up after the fact Jul 11, 2006

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are after, but it seems to me that this would be explained by posts that are subject to vetting.

Posts that do not require vetting will obviously appear first on the main page. After they are vetted, the other posts (of non-members) will then appear in the list. I take it that they don't appear at the top of the list, but rather are sorted in according to the time they are posted.

Is that the answer you are looking for?


BTW - When I click on the link you provided, there is nothing there. Maybe some topics are deleted after the fact.

[Edited at 2006-07-11 08:24]


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 15:36
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A thread may be removed by the site staff or a moderator Jul 11, 2006

juvera wrote:

what makes some "Most recent posts" page threads disappear from the middle of the page so to speak? I thought Henry's explanation fits the phenomena, but apparently it doesn't.

It is not too difficult to notice, make a note of the "Off topic" blue ones, and follow their passage for a few days. A couple of them may start off with - say - 4 other threads between them. Two days later they may turn up next to each other. What happened to those in between?

One thing might, as it happened today, (what a coincidence!) they disappear without trace a couple of days and a dozen or so posts later, if they never existed, like this one;

http://www.proz.com/topic/50986

That possibility wasn't explained either, although to be fair, I think this is not the usual occurence.

Regards,
Judith


The thread that you mention has been removed by Henry for being against the site rules. The author has received a communication about the reasons for the removal.

The removal of a thread does not alter the general chronological sequence as I explained it, and the event of thread removed is not rare, but it is applied by moderators and staff only when a forum rule is broken.
Usually, the interested parties receive the necessary explanations privately.


bye
Gianfranco


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juvera  Identity Verified
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Thanks, Derek and Gianfranco Jul 11, 2006

Derek Gill Franßen wrote:

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are after, but it seems to me that this would be explained by posts that are subject to vetting.

Posts that do not require vetting will obviously appear first on the main page. After they are vetted, the other posts (of non-members) will then appear in the list. I take it that they don't appear at the top of the list, but rather are sorted in according to the time they are posted.

Is that the answer you are looking for?


BTW - When I click on the link you provided, there is nothing there. Maybe some topics are deleted after the fact.

[Edited at 2006-07-11 08:24]


You are right, the vetting has to be a major factor in causing changes.

The combination of the two, vetted questions appearing and removal of others is enough to explain the unstability of the list the way I perceived it.

The empty link was explained by Gianfranco. That was exactly my point. Although a moderator took exeption to the "off topic" thread straight away, it was "live" for quite a while, long enough to receive a number of posts. The staff is obviously very busy, or they took time to make up their minds whether to laugh or fret about it.

My next qestion is then, by what criteria is it decided to lock or remove a question alltogether? I mean what makes the difference between the two to remove, what tips the balance?

I understand locking, understand editing, and understand if a thread removed quickly, as if it was vetted. What I don't understand is, what's the point of wiping off a thread that was read by a couple of hundred people already, instead of just locking it and give an explanation why. That way at least we would be in position of learning about the refinements of site rules.

Regards,
Judith


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 15:36
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Difference between locking and hiding Jul 12, 2006

juvera wrote:
...
My next qestion is then, by what criteria is it decided to lock or remove a question alltogether? I mean what makes the difference between the two to remove, what tips the balance?
...


Dear Judith,

Hiding is used for postings and threads that break the rules in such a way that it is unlikely to fix them by editing.
The poster should be informed.
Note tha ediiting can only be done by the author, as moderators have no access to the posting content. We can only edit the title.


Locking is used for threads that are within the rules (there is no need to hide them), but look like an imminent flame war or show a clear tendency towards undesirable results.
There is no need to write to the author if the reason for locking is explained by the Moderator who takes the decision to lock.




juvera wrote:
...
I understand locking, understand editing, and understand if a thread removed quickly, as if it was vetted. What I don't understand is, what's the point of wiping off a thread that was read by a couple of hundred people already, instead of just locking it and give an explanation why. That way at least we would be in position of learning about the refinements of site rules.
...



Moderator's action, in some cases, may not be immediate, occasionally an action is even reversed (a locked thread is unlocked, a hidden thread is made visible again) because we discuss some cases within the team, and the initial action may be considered by other Moderators incorrect or excessive.
Similarly, a thread that has been left live for some time, may be subject to a discussion and hidden/locked in a later moment.

Please consider that difficult cases are rarely handled by a single moderator, but more often they are discussed, analyzed and dissected openly within the team, and any Moderator can contribute and offer advice to the team member haivng a difficult case in his forum, or asking for advice.

In most cases we solve a case using the set of rules, the Moderator's manuals, quoting similar past cases and discussing the best course of action. This process may take some time, from a few minutes to several hours, or even more than a day, until when a decision is taken.
Every new case is used to learn and improve the site.


I hope this answer your question.


bye
Gianfranco





[Edited at 2006-07-12 12:05]


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juvera  Identity Verified
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That puts things into perspective Jul 12, 2006

Dear Gianfranco,

thank you for your thorough and informative answer. I expect it would help other people too to understand better the processes and time delays regarding the forum.

Regards
Judith


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