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new overview article on MT postediting
Thread poster: Jeff Allen

Jeff Allen  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 03:34
Member (2011)
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
Mar 19, 2005

Hello all,
A new overview article (1 1/2 pages) of mine on the results of postediting using different automatic translation/machine translation (MT) software has just appeared:

ALLEN, Jeff. What is Post-editing? Translation Automation Newsletter, Issue 4. February 2005.
http://www.geocities.com/mtpostediting/TA_IssueFour.pdf


This article might spur on some discussion about how usable MT raw output is when combined with postediting clean-up work that must follow it to complete a translation job.

Jeff

-----
Jeff Allen
http://www.geocities.com/jeffallenpubs/


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Marinus Vesseur  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 18:34
English to Dutch
+ ...
Can postediting of machine translation be combined with tm systems? Mar 20, 2005

I was going to post something on recent experiences I have made with postedited machine translations German-English and English-German. Then I saw this posting, so I'll just add my findings here. The translation software is a relatively inexpensive program called Personal Translator, office plus version (approx 200 Euro). The translation results of this program, if properly used, aren't bad at all, despite the derogatory remarks of many of my colleagues. Of course there are huge differences between the individual available programs. Don't expect good results from a 30 Euro 12-languages translator.

I have been thinking about the idea of offering cheaper translation services than usual, pointing out to the potential customer that what he would be getting would be an edited machine translation at a reduced price; a kind of b-level translation, for those who want to know what the document is about, for internal use so to say.

Having read that Jeff here poses that one can achieve 'professional' level translation in one third of the time normally used I am starting to think the 'b-level' translation idea may not be so good after all if 'a-level' can be achieved within little more time.

I am now stuck with the following problem: having recently mastered the use of Trados and rather liking the comfort of a tm system, how can I combine the advantages of working with a tm system with the assistance a machine translation offers me. It's like one or the other, isn't it?

Or are there ways of using MT in a way that would make TM obsolete?

Looking forward to any comments.


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xxx00000000
English to French
+ ...
SDLX with AutoTrans Mar 21, 2005

Marinus Vesseur wrote:
am now stuck with the following problem: having recently mastered the use of Trados and rather liking the comfort of a tm system, how can I combine the advantages of working with a tm system with the assistance a machine translation offers me. It's like one or the other, isn't it?

Or are there ways of using MT in a way that would make TM obsolete?
[/quote]

If you had chosen SDLX instead of Trados, all you'd have to do would be to upgrade from SDLX Standard to SDLX Professional, which includes an MT engine.

This said, I don't share your or Jeff's enthusiasm for MT. I only use mine when I feel lonely during long hours of translation. The translations it comes up with often make me laugh and it's like having a companion with a peculiar sense of humor to keep me company.

Best,
Esther

[Edited at 2005-03-21 04:43]


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Harry Bornemann  Identity Verified
Mexico
English to German
+ ...
Certain benefits of MT cannot be denied Mar 21, 2005

Currently I am testing the MT program Personal Translator, integrated into Déjà Vu X via Macro Magic, to translate a web site.

It increased my speed by 50%, indeed, but I think this is mainly due to the effect of eliminating the horror vacui, i.e. the time spent for contemplating how to begin a sentence; I still have to delete at least 80% of the proposed words.


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Jeff Allen  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 03:34
Member (2011)
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
combining MT and TM Mar 21, 2005

Marinus Vesseur wrote:
...recent experiences I have made with postedited machine translations German-English and English-German. .... The translation software is a relatively inexpensive program called Personal Translator, office plus version (approx 200 Euro). The translation results of this program, if properly used, aren't bad at all, .... Of course there are huge differences between the individual available programs. Don't expect good results from a 30 Euro 12-languages translator.


All of the MT case studies that I have done over the past few years have been with Professional or Expert level versions of the software. Never with Personal / Standard level versions which are meant for home or office workers. The Pro and Expert versions usually have many additional features for professional translators.
Examples of feature chart comparing standard, Pro and Expert versions can be found:
* at the link at the end of my review article of SYSTRAN v4:
www.multilingual.com/allen58.htm
* in my co-authored review article of PROMT XT v6:
www.multilingual.com/allenWassmer62.htm

My MT case study on telecom software documentation (pre-sales and post-sales documentation) is indicated with link at:
http://www.proz.com/post/211575#211575

I am working on another such case study at the moment with another document type and a different software product than the one used in the one above.


Marinus Vesseur wrote:
I have been thinking about the idea of offering cheaper translation services than usual, pointing out to the potential customer that what he would be getting would be an edited machine translation at a reduced price; a kind of b-level translation, for those who want to know what the document is about, for internal use so to say.


That's the distinction between Inbound/Inward (content gisting) and Outbound/Outward Translation (translation for publication). See my powerpoint presention (in PDF format) presented at Localization World 2004 on Inbound vs. Outbound translation at:
http://www.proz.com/post/190126#190126

Many organizations in the past have emphasized the use of MT for Inbound type document translation jobs. I think that I listed those who have done it in my book chapter on MT postediting which is mentioned at:
http://www.proz.com/post/211575#211575

hmm, I think there is an online pre-published near final draft of the book chapter as well. Yes, it is at the following link (note: the final published version in 2003 had a few of my editorial changes, and change in chapter number)
http://stp.ling.uu.se/~evapet/CAT/7-Allen.doc

Marinus Vesseur wrote:
Having read that Jeff here poses that one can achieve 'professional' level translation in one third of the time normally used I am starting to think the 'b-level' translation idea may not be so good after all if 'a-level' can be achieved within little more time.


Yes, that is why I have been providing case studies on this:
* on telecom field pre-sales (Response for Information) and software delivery Customer test plan in the case study link provided above.
* on marketing brochures in this following short case study:
http://www.geocities.com/mtpostediting/Allen-LI-article-Reverso.pdf
* another one in progress (as mentioned above)


Marinus Vesseur wrote:
I am now stuck with the following problem: having recently mastered the use of Trados and rather liking the comfort of a tm system, how can I combine the advantages of working with a tm system with the assistance a machine translation offers me. It's like one or the other, isn't it?


I provided a reply on this topic (with links) at:
http://www.proz.com/post/189873#189873

and in French in the French forum to specific questions at:
http://www.proz.com/post/191017#191017

As for the workflow of combining MT software/systems with TM tools: I've built TM-like tools at the Center for MT (Carnegie Mellon Univ), and built and implemented other TM solutions (in-house built and commercial off the shelf) combined with MT at major corporations (Caterpillar), and designed combined MT/TM for small business translation workflows. It depends on which systems (and versions of them) that you combine, so I provide training courses and tutorials on this.
But you can note that at least two of the current commercially offered MT packages (PROMT and SYSTRAN) have internal built Translation Memory modules. Also, PROMT already has a TRADOS Workbench plug-in (reviewed in my and Tom Wassmer's co-authored review of it with link up above) in their Expert version, and at end of 2004 I attended a prototype demo of SYSTRAN's new TRADOS WB plug-in module (but I have no idea when and how they will make it available).

Marinus Vesseur wrote:
Or are there ways of using MT in a way that would make TM obsolete?


TM tools (based on Example-based MT techniques) are one type of productivity tool, and MT (mainly rule-based commercial systems) is a different type of productivity tool. A few years ago, I decided to not continue the TM-focused work because there were plenty of other people developing and implementing those. The concept behind them is quite simple. The difficulties with TM are mainly:
1. the file format filters
2. data exchange between different TM tools
3. all the quirks of (in)compatibility with all other software and tools
4. issues of fuzzy matching depending on many factors

So I decided to focus on developing the translation workflow process (for translators) for using commercial MT software tools.
And the result is that productivity gain can be found on new set of texts never put into memories before, and also with texts that do not have a sufficient volume of repetitive sentences or partial sentences to see immediate gains with TM tools.

Yet they can complement each other in an overall workflow.

Hope that helps.

Jeff


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Jeff Allen  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 03:34
Member (2011)
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
SDL MT software Mar 21, 2005

Esther Pfeffer wrote:
If you had chosen SDLX instead of Trados, all you'd have to do would be to upgrade from SDLX Standard to SDLX Professional, which includes an MT engine.


SDL's MT solution was not built inhouse as was done with their TM solution. They bought out the Enterprise Server and PC version software packaged MT system by Transparent Language at end 2000 / beg 2001. The Transparent system had been used successfully with Postediting tasks by at least one localization provider in the field previous to that.

Esther Pfeffer wrote:
This said, I don't share your or Jeff's enthusiasm for MT. I only use mine when I feel lonely during long hours of translation. The translations it comes up with often make me laugh and it's like having a companion with a peculiar sense of humor to keep me company.


The key to using MT efficiently and productively is not trying to use it as a simple out-of-the-box push-button solution. Just like working with TM tools, it takes some upfront work. How much upfront and downside work? That is the issue. That's what I've been measuring and showing in my MT case study papers recently.

Jeff
http://www.geocities.com/mtpostediting/


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Jeff Allen  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 03:34
Member (2011)
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
deleting 80% proposed words Mar 21, 2005

Harry_B wrote:
Currently I am testing the MT program Personal Translator, integrated into Déjà Vu X via Macro Magic, to translate a web site.

It increased my speed by 50%, indeed, but I think this is mainly due to the effect of eliminating the horror vacui, i.e. the time spent for contemplating how to begin a sentence; I still have to delete at least 80% of the proposed words.


There are 2 reasons for deleting proposed words:
1. it doesn't have a good enough dictionary
2. it doesn't have the feature in some products like being able to display and re-prioritize alternative meanings and hide the ones you do not want, rather than having to manually delete the words.

See this described in some of my reviews of the products at:
Reverso Pro 4 (PROMT 98)
http://www.geocities.com/mtpostediting/Allen-LI-article-Reverso.pdf
Reverso 5 (Pro & Expert) (PROMT v5)
http://www.multilingual.com/allen50.htm
SYSTRAN v4
http://www.multilingual.com/allen58.htm
PROMT XT (v6) 2003
http://www.multilingual.com/allenWassmer62.htm

In my AMTA2004 MT case study (link provided in another message I have posted above), I developed a dictionary in 6 1/2 to 7 hours and only spent 30-45 minutes postediting it before sending to several internal teams for review and then to the customer. That was a key customer-facing document for a multi-million dollar contract, so final publication quality was critical.

Jeff
http://www.geocities.com/mtpostediting/


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Ade Indarta  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 09:34
English to Indonesian
Any new link? Aug 6, 2010

Hi Jeff,

I am really interested with post-editing. I just read your article in Translation and Computer. (Jeffry Allen, that is you, right?)

I am looking for other reference on this post-editing. After some googling I found this discussion. I tried to follow your link for "What is Post-editing?" artikel but it is gone now. Do you have any live link where I read your article?

Thanks,
Ade


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Susan Welsh  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:34
Member (2008)
Russian to English
+ ...
Jeff, these links are no good Aug 7, 2010

Jeff Allen wrote:

ALLEN, Jeff. What is Post-editing? Translation Automation Newsletter, Issue 4. February 2005.
http://www.geocities.com/mtpostediting/TA_IssueFour.pdf

http://www.geocities.com/jeffallenpubs/


Yahoo says that these Geocities sites are no longer available.


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Jeff Allen  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 03:34
Member (2011)
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
the lists of all my articles/publications are in my ProZ profile Aug 7, 2010

Geocities closed down in Oct 2009.
I planned for this by putting the compiled list of all of my publications (one just for Creoles and another for all of them) in my ProZ profile and also up in my LinkedIn profile.
go download the Word document(s) that provide embedded links to download them directly.
I update the links in my profiles as newer updated versions of the compiled list are available.

Jeff


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Sergei Tumanov  Identity Verified
Local time: 04:34
English to Russian
+ ...
why? Aug 7, 2010

… I have been thinking about the idea of offering cheaper translation services than usual, …



Even without your input to the reduction of market prices they are already below the level a hair stylist earns.


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