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Thread poster: Andrea Bullrich

Andrea Bullrich  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:25
Member
English to Spanish
Mar 13, 2002

Hola a todos



En estos días en que leía el debate México/Méjico (y en el que mi corazoncito estaba irremediablemente con México), recibí este aporte a través de un miembro de otra lista. La persona que escribió los dos mensajes originales es estadounidense y se llama Mike Karapcik. El primer comentario respondía a otro en que alguien preguntaba si había problemas en los distintos países del mundo a causa de la diferencia de acentos. El segundo es la respuesta que me hizo llegar cuando le pedí autorización para compartir el primero con ustedes.



\"Here in North America, ohhhhh, yes....

Almost everyone I\'ve known from Canada claims the French view those from Quebec as evil degenerate troglodytes who exist only to bastardize \"The Language\". The one Canadian friend I\'ve had who went to Paris ended up leaving Paris a day early. (He and his friend are Israeli-Americans who went on a walking tour of Europe before returning to the US. They only spoke Hebrew to each other in France so they wouldn\'t be pegged as Americans. It turns out, they had wonderful times in France. His Quebec accent only drew open hostility among the \"in crowd\" in Paris.)

I\'ve known two black teachers who went to Africa on a teacher\'s exchange program. They both got a lot of flack in Africa, particularly from those of native decent, because their English was not Imperial standard.

A friend of mine from Brazil says they make more fun of various Brazilian accents than European Portuguese, but they don\'t take it very seriously. He also said that European Portuguese think Brazilians sound like hicks, and Brazilians think Europeans sound like stuffy academics who haven\'t had a good party in years. However, he said it was something everyone jokes about but doesn\'t take too seriously.

The Spanish... Oh, Sweet Goddess Brigid.....

In Florida, we have communities of almost every Spanish speaking country in our hemisphere. When I took Spanish in high school, I sat in the \"parade of nations\" corner. I quickly learned that each country speaks \"The One True Spanish\", and all the others are Wrong. I vividly remember long, rabid arguments over words and slang terms being right or wrong. I would try to offer the logical argument that Spanish from different countries that have been independent for centuries would begin to develop differently. I quickly learned to just be quiet.

There is also a lot of animosity with the US school system because we are taught Castilian Spanish, \"which no-one speaks\". When I was trying to practice the Spanish I had learned (and eager, wide-eyed geek in high school), I so often encountered the attitude, \"Your Spanish is horrible and it\'s not real Spanish so I will only speak English to you,\" that I just gave up. I was also told that, in those words, more than once.

So, I just fell back on my 3 years of Latin as my foreign language.

I went on to take Japanese in college, only to find out that Japanese people *will not* speak in Japanese to Americans unless the Americans can impress them in under three seconds. (It\'s not a demeaning thing. They are afraid the American will say something off or cause a misunderstanding, VERY easy in Japanese, that they don\'t let it happen.)\"

___________



\"Feel free to share. I hope it didn\'t come across as harsh. I was young and rather idealistic when this happened.

Personally, I think a lot of the hostility within and between different language communities is from a fear of assimilation. This is also related to why English-speakers in the US are very forgiving to those who are just beginning English.

Here in the US, for over two centuries, \"everyone\" was christian (usually protestant), spoke British-based English, and was white. While the US has progressed tremendously to get out of this mindset, it is still there. Most of us believe that it is Good and Natural for everyone else to learn English. Since everyone we speak to in our daily lives speaks English, we expect that to carry over into the world. (Basically, I think my country\'s monoculturalism has become a bad thing.)

Among the South American and Native American friends I have had, there is a very strong drive to keep the language, and with it the culture, alive.

Unfortunately, some groups have turned this into a private club of sorts. I think it\'s somewhat sad and counter productive, but I do understand where it comes from.

(I have learned this myself, as a non-Christian. People act amazed when they find that I don\'t go to \"a church\" [Unitarian churches don\'t count], that I don\'t celebrate Christmas and Easter, and that my religion is different.

\"Well, why don\'t you go to a real church? Well, why don\'t you convert?\" As sad as it is, I rarely speak in glowing praise of my fellow citizens.)

I also hope I don\'t come across as horribly bitter. I\'m really not. I\'ve had the blessing of knowing many people from around the world, and one of my high school friends who helped me pass Spanish was from Chile.\"



Como ven, en todos lados se cuecen las mismas habas, y quizá tenerlo presente nos ayude a respetarnos más y entendernos mejor.



Saludos



Andrea

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-03-13 16:10 ]


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xxxPaul Roige
Spain
Local time: 13:25
English to Spanish
+ ...
ahĂ­, ahĂ­... Mar 13, 2002

...sobra nacionalismo y orgullo y falta sentido común y respeto a la diferencia. Plus ça change...



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DOUBLE A EN<>ES

English to Spanish
+ ...
Is this Spanish? Is it not? Then what is it? Mar 13, 2002

\"Le dije a mi parna que si me daba un raite en su troca a mi casa. Me dijo pues que sí, que primero pasaba por la marketa y después me traía. Después de pasar por la marketa paró en una licorería y le dijo a un vato si tenía una dima. Ahí fue cuando ví al manejador sacar la pistola...\"



Anybody wanna take a stab a this one? It\'s not that hard, is it?


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Edward Potter  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:25
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Interesting Mar 14, 2002

Very interesting comments there. Language is so complicated. Today in the U.S. the debate to have a national language is heating up. There are already a few states that have official languages. Walking down the road of the Europeans and others?

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xxxPaul Roige
Spain
Local time: 13:25
English to Spanish
+ ...
Rick Mar 14, 2002

Me encanta. Envíaselo a la RAE, a ver qué dicen...

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xxxElena Sgarbo  Identity Verified
Italian to English
+ ...
Is this Spanish? Mar 14, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-03-13 21:15, RickZ wrote:

\"Le dije a mi parna que si me daba un raite en su troca a mi casa. Me dijo pues que sí, que primero pasaba por la marketa y después me traía. Después de pasar por la marketa paró en una licorería y le dijo a un vato si tenía una dima. Ahí fue cuando ví al manejador sacar la pistola...\"



Anybody wanna take a stab a this one? It\'s not that hard, is it?





Let me try:

\"I asked my partner if he could give me a ride in his truck. He said \'course, yes, that he\'d first stop by the market and then would drop me off. After stopping by the market, he stopped at a liquor store and asked a vat [clerk] if he had a dime. That\'s when I saw the manager reaching for his gun...\"



Could that be it, Rick??



Ahh... los años vividos en el MidWest, aprendiendo el español local!!



Pequeña anécdota personal: La primera vez que nuestra empleada doméstica (una sra. muy simpática, mexicana) me informó \"hoy vine con la troca de mi esposo\", no quise parecer pedante (fama que tenemos los argentinos en varios lugares del mundo), y entonces en lugar de preguntarle a la sra. \"Qué es la troca?\", lo cual podía llegar a sonar altanero, le pregunté, en un tono neutral y tratando de obtener \"clues\":

\"Ah, sí? Y dónde está [la troca]?\"



La sra. me miró \"like I had 3 heads\", y me contestó, señalando la ventana del lavadero: \"Pues allí, en el driveway\".



(Aclaración \'off the subject\': como muchos de Uds. saben, acá en USA en casi todas las flias. hay x lo menos 1 vehículo x adulto).



Miré x la ventana y vi la \"pick-up\". Entonces mi cerebro conectó \"troca\" con \"truck\", el nombre genérico dado aquí en USA a los vehículos tipo \"pick-up\". En una palabra, la sra. me estaba informando que había venido a trabajar en el vehículo de su esposo, ya que el de ella estaba en el taller para reparaciones....













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bunnie  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:25
Member
English to Spanish
La windola y otras perlas Mar 14, 2002

ÂżYa no hay nobles hidalgos ni bravos caballeros?

>¿Callaremos ahora para llorar después?>>

Rubén Darío (El Cisne)



Personalmente creo que el spanglish flaco favor nos hace a los traductores. Os dejo. Voy a ver si rolo la windola de vuelta para atrás que está windeando...



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xxxechoecho
Spanish to English
+ ...
Dialects Mar 15, 2002

Border Talk, dialects.



The sentences commented before are border talk It is a mixture of Spanish and English. You don’t hear border talk in Chicago. The people speak Spanish, or English and poor Spanish( second generation). Of course some gangs have their codes.



Borders like in Basel, Merci Vielmals, also a mixture of German and French. Or in Pyriness 2000 a place on the border near Andorra. Catalan, French and Spanish.

Or in Elsass, Alsace, Old German and French.



Then you have dialects, like Lumfardo, Parisian Argot, Chilean Spanish and Cockney to name a few. Or Norwegian and Danish. They are very similar to Swedish, and in a Kibbutz I was in all the Scandinavians understood each other very well.



I remember traveling on a bus in London’s outskirts. The two ladies were talking in Cockney, and I could not understand a word of it. On a train I tried to follow the Scots and their conversation, impossible. In Frankfurt you had the all the Chileans that were either against or for this and that, and once more I couldn’t understand a word when they talking with each other. It reminded me of a Sicilian dialect.

Oye Tio, y ¿Vos que decis? I am not his uncle and me it is just me, I am not many persons. I can understand Gallegos since I speak Portuguese and Spanish. And I don’t want to even mention all the different languages or dialects of Germany. The Swiss have this impossible German.

I don’t have any problems with Columbians, Venezuelans, Peruvians or even Cubans or those from Puerto Rico. I can follow their speech perfectly well, as also any Spaniard who knows how to speak Spanish…..Many don’t….



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two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 09:25
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
Viejo recuerdo Mar 15, 2002

Cuando hacía mis primeras armas laborales como ingeniero trabajaba con un grupo de asesores británicos con los que me comunicaba bastante bien, exvepto con uno al que no le entendía nada. Un día le comenté la situación a uno de los ingleses con el que tenía muy buena relación. El mismo me tranquilizó diciendo \"don\'t worry, he\'s a Welshman, we can not understand him either!\"
[addsig]


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DOUBLE A EN<>ES

English to Spanish
+ ...
Thumbs up, Elena! Mar 15, 2002

You almost got\'em all. The vato I was referring to is like \"dude,\" \"guy\" or \"man\", and the \"dima\" is a \"dime\", i.e., a dime-bag of a controlled substance.



What I didn\'t get was vat(clerk)??



Bottom line: L.A. home-boys and Texan home-boys can obviously understand each other perfectly!


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xxxElena Sgarbo  Identity Verified
Italian to English
+ ...
Thanks, Rick... I keep learning the local US Spanish every day! Mar 15, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-03-15 09:25, RickZ wrote:

You almost got\'em all. The vato I was referring to is like \"dude,\" \"guy\" or \"man\", and the \"dima\" is a \"dime\", i.e., a dime-bag of a controlled substance.



What I didn\'t get was vat(clerk)??





... Rick, no tenía idea de que \'vato\' era \"dude\" -- pensé que \'vato\' venía de \"vat\", o sea \"barril\", recipiente que muchas veces contienie bebidas alcohólicas para añejar. De ahí mi inferencia: \'vater\' (\"vato\") en referencia al empleado de la licorería.



Muy instructivo también lo de \"dime\" ... si seré ingenua, yo!! .... pensaba que el diálogo que transcribiste aludía a una moneda de 10 centavos para completar la \'pay phone fare\'!!! ... (I need to get out more!!)



En fin, Rick, que con este texto sobre las gangas me has enseñado un par de palabras + para incorporar al Glosario para Hispanoparlantes Recién Llegados a Estados Unidos que Deseen Conversar en Español con Hispanoparlantes ya Establecidos.



Bunnie, muy interesante también tu aporte



Bueno, me voy para la yarda a tomar fresco y andar por la grasa nueva de primavera, que quedé cansada después de vacumear las carpetas, y todavía tengo que ocuparme de esas pipas que liquean ....



Elena

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