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ProZ.com forums: their purpose and structure. (Also: mood of the Spanish forum and rest of site.)
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 12:55
SITE FOUNDER
Sep 15, 2006

Thanks for your patience as I prepared this post. Please excuse my English posting in this forum. And please feel free to respond in Spanish.

Thanks to those who have given me insight into the current situation in ProZ.com's Spanish-speaking community. I am encouraged by the passion for our collaborative community that is evident even in the harshest criticisms, and am happy for the opportunity to speak on behalf of site moderators and staff members in clarifying the goals and motivations of those who create and administer the site.

In particular, I would like to focus on our forums, and explain how the goals and philosophies of the site have given rise to the structure and rules that now exist. With this knowledge, I believe that the actions taken by moderators and staff members in recent threads (such as that started by Aurora) will be better understood.

To be clear, my hope is not that everyone will agree with the philosophy behind the site and its forums, but rather that the philosophy be understood. I hope that by conveying the ideas and principles upon which the site has been built, the moderators (who in the end are volunteers who stepped forward to improve this as a workplace for all) will less frequently become the victims of unfair criticism.

First of all, any discussion on ProZ.com's philosophies and features must begin with recognition of what ProZ.com is...

ProZ.com is a workplace.

To understand ProZ.com and how it is run, it is important to understand that from the start, ProZ.com has been intended as a "workplace". As founder and president, my goal is to lead my team and the moderators in creating a results-oriented working environment of benefit to all participants--in their work. More detail is provided on this point here: http://www.proz.com/scope

Why do I bring this up now? Because I believe it will help explain the structure and rules that have evolved here for our forums.

The purpose of ProZ.com forums

At ProZ.com, a forum is first and foremost a place to solve problems together. The socialization and debate that occur, and the networking, are an expected and desired outcome--but they are not the point. The point is solving problems together.

If a focus on solving problems is the point (and not debate), how do we encourage this in our platform? By providing a bit of structure and some rules to encourage focus.

The forum structure (ie. the importance of defining the topic and sticking to it)

At ProZ.com, in general, we do not wish to encourage discussions of a free-flowing, stream-of-consciousness type.* Instead, we strive to encourage a results-oriented environment where there is lots of signal and little noise. For this reason, we require that each post be made in response to a specific topic, and that the theme and goal of each topic be defined by initial posters in as concrete a manner as possible.

* 'ConociéndonoZ' et al. are off-topic diversions which are welcomed by most. But those who do not wish to read or be notified of such off-topic threads are provided with a means of filtering them.

In order to encourage structured, results-oriented exchanges, topic posters are asked to present their subject matter (problems, questions or proposals) in as concrete a manner as possible.

This should not be new to anyone. The form for posting new topics says this:
--------------------------------
Note:
  • Your topic headline must state your question or main point.
  • Do not use all caps. Avoid exclamation marks.
  • Staff members may edit your heading.

  • Examples (Bad Good)
    Dancing Resource: Dance glossary (ita)
    Have a look... Times article on translation
    Help!!! WORD error 32013: 'No features computed'
    --------------------------------


    If this instruction has been overlooked, when a moderator edits the subject line, the following explanation would normally be sent to the poster:
    --------------------------------
    Please use subject line to make your main point

    Thanks for using the ProZ.com forums.

    A subject line you entered has been changed.

    Original subject line: A good one!
    New subject line: New dictionary resource: http://www.onelook.com

    URL: http://www.proz.com/topic/54216

    About subject lines

    Subject lines entered in the ProZ.com forums become part of the summary of each discussion. They may also be shown on the ProZ.com home page, where interested parties can click to read more.

    Because your subject line will often stand alone, it is important that you write it carefully, making it as descriptive as possible. In fact, it is suggested that you summarize the main point of any post in the subject line.

    As noted in the forum rules, non-descriptive subject lines may be edited by site moderators or staff members.

    For more info, see:
    http://www.proz.com/?sp=faq&#bb_subject_line
    Forum rules: http://www.proz.com/forumrules
    --------------------------------


    The FAQ that is referenced says:
    --------------------------------
    9. Why did my subject line change?

    ProZ.com moderators and staff may edit subject lines that are not sufficiently descriptive of the content of a post. (This is stated in the posting and reply forms, and also in the forum rules.)

    Why is this done? For one, subject lines are shown on the ProZ.com front page. Misleading or incomplete subject lines keep people from efficiently finding topics of interest to them. Subject lines also become part of the summaries mailed out to those tracking topics, and they provide help in find old threads. For these reasons, it is important that subject lines be formulated to convey, as much as possible, the content of a thread.

    Examples of bad subject lines:

    - KudoZ (problem: too general)
    - For all translators to read (problem: not representative of content)

    Examples of good subject lines:

    - Indemnity insurance - do I need it? Where can I get it?
    - New freelancer seeks tips on translation software

    Writing good subject lines is not always easy, so be creative!
    --------------------------------


    Finally, the rule says:
    --------------------------------
    2. Posters are expected to write detailed titles and post in the most appropriate forum.

    Because the ProZ.com forums are very active, care is required to ensure the usefulness of the resource. The titles of postings must be as descriptive of the posting's content as possible, whenever possible, making the posting's main point in the title. (Note that for purposes of clarity and organization of the archives, moderators are given authority to edit posting titles and move topics between forums. Moderators can not modify the content of a forum posting.)
    --------------------------------


    Among the benefits of defining a topic as instructed above are that: (1) people who are interested in it are more likely to find it, (2) people who are not interested in it can more readily skip it, and (3) it is much easier to find what one needs in searches of the archive.

    Once the topic has been defined in a detailed manner, in the interest of solving the problem raised, others are asked not to diverge from the topic presented.

    How the structure and rules were applied to the recent topic raised by Aurora.

    Aurora recently posted a topic in which she asked, if I understood correctly, what the procedure is for vetting jobs. I understood that the title of her post might be translated as "offensive offers" in English.

    I edited Aurora's title, as I have edited hundreds or thousands of other titles over the years. I was then asked what was "wrong" with Aurora's title. My answer: Nothing was wrong with Aurora's original title... but it was not as descriptive of the content of her topic as it could be, given that the stated purpose of the title is to communicate to others to the extent possible the content of the post. For example, the short title would have been of little help to a future site user who searches the forums to find an answer to the same question Aurora asked.

    What is more, due to the general nature of the title, the topic had diverged from Aurora specific question. It came to the point that Aurora felt it necessary to cite a rule and ask others to stick to the topic at hand. One site user refused to, and after an exchange, a temporary block was put in place.

    As far as I know, no one among the community, moderators or staff, questioned the importance of the question Aurora posed. In fact, I would say that Aurora might properly have marked her topic as "on-topic" rather than "off-topic", since the question she raised impacts the businesses of many members of our community. So it was with an appreciation of the importance of the topic that any administrative action was taken. As Aurora requested, this was a topic that deserved to maintain focus. Our rules, and moderators, help to maintain focus *on behalf of the community*. (Not against it!)

    How rules have been enforced.

    Administrative action has been taken recently in the case of about five users of the Spanish forums. These actions were taken by site moderators and staff members for concrete, verifiable violations of published rules. Generally speaking, those whom administrative action has been taken against are warned previously, and as a standard practice, those who violate rules are given notification of the reason that administrative action is being taken (including specific citation of the rule violated, by number.)

    Some have regarded this administrative action as a form of "censorship"*. To them, I would only point out that as long as the rules are respected, just about any opinion can be presented. For example, there are many posts in our forums that are critical of ProZ.com (and this can be readily confirmed). Contructive and professional criticism is ultimately good for the community.

    All we require is that site users follow the rules of the forums. It doesn't matter whether they are paying members or not.

    I personally do not think that this approach can properly be called "censorship"**, but if it can, then I personally accept the charge. I, for one, simply will not have a situation in which one site user is permitted to disclose personal information about another site user without that person's permission (as has happened recently here). I also will do everything I can to prevent this platform from being used as a place for people to attack one another on a personal level. I would sooner shut down the forums, and in fact the entire site, than to allow this sort of thing to occur.

    Speaking for staff members and moderators, all of us work very hard to provide this platform, and I can assure you that we do not provide it as a tool for personal vendettas. ProZ.com is a workplace, a place for people to come together and share their work in a positive and constructive environment. We intend to have it to remain that.

    We are not always perfect in our enforcement of the rules. All of our rules are documented, and we strive to apply them consistently in all cases, but sometimes we miss things, and sometimes we make mistakes. In those cases, please let us know with a support ticket and we will try to make things right as soon as we can.
    * In an apparent statement on the matter, five or six site users replaced their photos with images representing censorship. These were removed by site staff members. Of course, such images were an affront to the moderators and staff members who were simply enforcing published rules, and certainly they would be damaging to ProZ.com as a business. But even leaving those considerations aside, we decided to remove the images. We felt that were the "censorship" images to have been featured on the home page or in the directory, they would have appeared as a form of vandalism, and would have reflected poorly upon the professionalism of the community itself in the eyes of potential clients and new collaborators. I do not suppose it was the intention of any of the "protesters" to affect other members' professional images... but our feeling (right or wrong) was that this would have been the result. (In short, please keep the profile photos professional.)

    ** Several of those who have recently equated rules enforcement with censorship have themselves requested moderator or staff member intervention for the purpose of rules enforcement. We are led to believe that even among critics, there is recognition of the value of rules enforcement in our community.

    The current situation

    Some have construed from recent posts in the Spanish forum that ProZ.com is in a crisis as a community. Some have even expressed concern for ProZ.com's future. We appreciate your concern! And we also take the views expressed in the forums very seriously.

    However, based on the information available to us, it does not appear that the current situation in the forum is reflective of the community as a whole. While the tone of some vocal contributors here in the Spanish forum has clearly deteriorated, the data we have concerning the mood of the broader Spanish-speaking community, and the community in general, suggests that the overall environment remains quite positive, perhaps increasingly so.

    For example:

    * With nearly 300 attendees, our recent Buenos Aires conference was by far our largest event to date. Of the 134 attendees who completed the post-conference survey, all 134 rated it 'good', 'very good' or 'excellent'. Only 2 of the 134 respondents said that they would not attend a future ProZ.com event in Argentina.

    * Our Edinburgh conference, while ultimately limited in space, has received more registrations, more quickly, than even the Buenos Aires conference.

    * In our recent survey of members (with over 500 respondents), over 93% of ProZ.com members said they would recommend ProZ.com membership to colleagues. Only 4.2% of current report being dissatisfied with their membership investment.

    * Even in a survey of those who did not renew their memberships, only 28% report that they were not satisfied with membership. Strikingly, 83% of those who did not renew their memberships report that they will consider renewing them again in the future.

    * Over 80% of members rate the site staff as good or excellent in communicating with the community, handling support tickets and handling payments.

    * 77% of members would be willing to take on a volunteer role in the community in some capacity (or already have).

    * We receive testimonials that ProZ.com has "changed my life", or "opened up a new world to me" at an increasing rate.

    * Polls and surveys show continued (and increasing) success in achievement of the four promises of our mission statement: to provide tools and opportunities you can use to (1) network, (2) expand your business, (3) do better work and (4) have more fun.

    * Although we are coming out of a seasonal dip that affects the entire industry, our community and site traffic continue to grow faster than that of any other industry site of which we are aware. See http://www.alexaholic.com to confirm this.

    * The company behind the site continues to grow. Now with a staff of 12, we continue to reinvest all membership income in further development of the site and--now, with the addition of Mike Kidd--in aggressively marketing your services to language companies and end clients. In short, we continue to work hard for you.

    In light of the above, and the other data available to us, it does not appear to me that the recent mood of vocal contributors to the Spanish language forum is indicative of any greater trend of ProZ.com, or even of ProZ.com's Spanish-speaking community in general.

    Nevertheless, all of us among the staff and moderator group take the current situation in the Spanish forum very seriously. A number of long-standing members (a fraction of the community overall, but nevertheless a significant number and a group we value very much), has leveled harsh criticisms and expressed a high degree of discontent. We want to satisfy this group. I have therefore encouraged staff members and moderators to take this as an opportunity to improve our workplace.

    In closing: our promise

    As I mentioned above, I do not expect everyone to agree with the philosophy we have taken in defining ProZ.com as a workplace. I know that some view the "workplace" approach as cold and lacking in humanity. I hope you will consider that the intention is exactly the opposite. We believe that it is the clear focus we have on working together, our shared goals, that has given rise to the camaraderie that runs through our diverse international community.

    Whether you prefer our approach or not, I promise that we will continue to seek every opportunity to make this workplace more valuable and more comfortable for you as a community. I also promise to continue listening to your feedback. When we are wrong, you'll let us know and we'll change.

    Thanks again everyone, for your support and your commitment to improving the site. And thanks to our members, who make it all possible, and to our moderators, who keep things running smoothly.


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    Patricia Posadas  Identity Verified
    Spain
    Local time: 17:55
    Member (2002)
    English to Spanish
    + ...
    About 'offensive' content Sep 15, 2006

    I understand that off-topic answers may be deleted, it has always been so as far as I remember.

    But Aurora's subject line reflected her topic much better than the asepisized one.

    I may not give a damn how the whole process works, and so don't read such a post. Still, I wonder - like so many colleagues - why offensive job offers are allowed.

    "Offensive" is a term that has been defined within proz.com to ban 'offensive postings', "kudoZ terms that can be felt as offensive", ... why not define what an offensive job offer is and ban it or flag it with a "may be found offensive by some members" label?


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    Andy Watkinson
    Spain
    Local time: 18:55
    Member
    Catalan to English
    + ...
    Dear Henry Sep 15, 2006

    In accordance with the indications of a ProZ.com moderator,
    to wit:

    "Aunque pongan el mismo "bostezo" como reacción a Henry, ¿no sería más apropiado hacerlo debajo de su posting en cambio de hacerlo "a escondidas" aquí?"

    the response in the Spanish community to your post is, so far, as follows:

    "Yawn".

    Andy.


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    Rosa Maria Duenas Rios  Identity Verified
    Local time: 12:55
    Another type of reaction Sep 15, 2006

    Andy Watkinson wrote:

    In accordance with the indications of a ProZ.com moderator,
    to wit:

    "Aunque pongan el mismo "bostezo" como reacción a Henry, ¿no sería más apropiado hacerlo debajo de su posting en cambio de hacerlo "a escondidas" aquí?"

    the response in the Spanish community to your post is, so far, as follows:

    "Yawn".

    Andy.



    May I just point out that such answer does not apply to all of us. I also stated in the same forum that Henry's posting was a large one, and that preparing an answer takes us time, which is what I am doing at this very moment. I will post it as soon as I finish it and, believe me, I am not yawning...


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    Henry Dotterer
    Local time: 12:55
    SITE FOUNDER
    TOPIC STARTER
    Was the subject line I chose not accurate? Sep 15, 2006

    Patricia Posadas wrote:

    I understand that off-topic answers may be deleted, it has always been so as far as I remember.

    But Aurora's subject line reflected her topic much better than the asepisized one.

    Did it? Far be it from me to argue with you or anyone concerning the meaning of a Spanish text, but here is the post in its entirety:
    Me gustaría saber cuál es el sistema actual para que el sitio acepte propuestas de trabajo que luego llegan a nuestros correos.

    ¿Algún moderador las lee? ¿Alguien de ProZ.com? ¿Las agencias se ponen en contacto directamente?

    ¿Cómo puedo hacer llegar mi queja si me ofende una oferta?

    Disculpas si me perdí algún capítulo y esto ya se explicó, pero, como todos saben, he estado bastante más ocupada de lo habitual.

    Muchas gracias.

    Au

    Is not "¿Cuál es el sistema actual para que el sitio acepte propuestas de trabajo?" a representative subject line? You will notice that I simply cut and pasted it from Aurora's own text. ( Prompting her, by the way, to complement me on my Spanish grammar. )

    Anyway, I and other moderators commonly edit subject lines, and the poster is free to go in and in turn edit the subject line further. That is why we send the explanation to the poster (as I did in this case.)

    In short, the point, as I have written above, is simply to make communications as organized and manageable as possible. It is not about "censorship."


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    Rosa Maria Duenas Rios  Identity Verified
    Local time: 12:55
    My thoughts... Sep 15, 2006

    Good morning Henry,
    First of all, thank you for your response.

    1. About titles
    However, I would appreciate if you could apply the rules for titles to yourself. I believe that stating “Mood of the Spanish Forum vs. the rest of the site” is a false portraying of the situation. I have seen “vs.” used in two instances in English: in box fights and in lawsuits, and -certainly- this discussion does not pretend to be either, or am I mistaken? We are not “against the rest of the site”. We have made countless suggestions in an attempt to improve both the site and our moods –some in very calm terms, others more passionate; to use your own words, our attempts have been “solving problems together”, but we just do not seem to get any satisfactory answers.

    2. About the thread opened by Aurora
    Reality speaks louder than words. I begin by stating that this is only my personal perception. Everything you have written on this topic is very compelling, and I would go for it all, if it not were for another forum, this one in English, which was opened almost at the same time as the forum opened in Spanish by Aurora, and on exactly the same topic (http://www.proz.com/topic/55128). Aurora's title was “ofertas ofensivas” and it was changed. However, the title of the English forum: “Job posting: Looking for honest translators…” was not changed to be as specific as the Spanish forum one. We could discuss a lifetime about how more or less explicit the titles are, but the comparison does not end here. While in the Spanish forum there were five staff interventions (three by the Spanish forum moderator, and two by you), and a few postings deleted to maintain the course of the discussion, in the four pages of the English one there was none (well there is one intervention by you, but it is to thank Aurora for what she pointed out). Mind you, at times the debate got very heated in the English forum. However, somehow or other, we managed to keep ourselves in control, and no moderator intervened as such (I think a couple intervened with their points of view). What I am witnessing here is that I have more ‘freedom of speech’ in the English forum than in the Spanish one. The way that I interpret this is that there is an uneven application of rules. And this is one of the main sources of our discontent, I believe. So, why rules apply differently to Spanish and to English forums? If you ask me, this has to do specifically with the moderator.

    3. About diverging topics.
    There is another blatant example of discretionary application of Proz.com rules in the forums. Please see: http://www.proz.com/topic/54932. It started as a topic on identity fraud (however, the title was also modified to “No está dentro del alcance del sitio hablar sobre un usuario del mismo”), but we ended up discussing minimum rates; and even though the Spanish forum moderator participated extensively in it, he never applied the rule to keep the topic from deviating.

    P.S. Another example that has just been brought to my attention. While it seems that three users modified their pictures in an attempt to make a statement, only one got his posting rights suspended. So that makes five (not four, as I thought) colleagues suspended so far.

    4. About a difficult to discuss topic.
    This topic is a specific case of identity fraud. It is hard to talk about it without breaking any Proz.com rule, but I will try, once more (I just posted something similar in another Spanish thread): Many of us know that there is a member who incurred in serious violations of Proz.com rules regarding identity and multiple profiles. A former moderator presented evidence, and the only visible result was that the moderator is no longer one. Nevertheless, the member continues to roam freely around Proz.com and collect kudoz points, while other members, just for having expressed their concern about this, have been suspended one or two weeks, or even indefinitely. The moderator has just replied with his usual answer: “If you have evidence, present it” and “sanctions are not made public”. Well no, of course we the users, do not have evidence, the evidence was presented to you by a former moderator; and, what I believe many of us find unacceptable is that, even if the member was sanctioned privately, the member, WITH ITS FALSE IDENTITY, is still among us despite the serious violations. If you were a user, Henry, how would you feel about this? Someone with false identity roaming freely in Proz.com with full knowledge of the Management, while four people not being able to express themselves now for having called our attention to this problem.

    5. About the last statement of your posting:
    “I also promise to continue listening to your feedback. When we are wrong, you'll let us know and we'll change”. Well, I can only say that this is exactly what we have been trying to do –some more successfully than others– during about the last six months: Trying to tell you what we think is wrong, or to be less drastic, not so good about Proz.com; and the only responses we have received so far are: “you are violating the rules”, “that falls outside the scope of Proz.com”, or “please send a support ticket”, among others. This is the source of our discomfort: that you say that you are going to do something, but you are not really doing much. Why is it so hard to understand, I wonder.

    6. To conclude, two requests:
    a) I wish the sanctions imposed to the colleagues who broke the rules could be suspended, so that they are able to contribute to this forum, if they so desire. We all know too well that if they have to wait until they have done their “time”, the topic will have probably faded by then.

    b) I know that by posting in English I have violated the forum rule that states that postings in foreign language forums should be in the language of the forum, for which I present my excuses. I answered in English because I want to make sure Henry understands me without intermediaries. However, we are all aware that not all the people that participate in the Spanish forums speak English; thus, I would respectfully but emphatically request that all contributions presented in this forum in English be translated into Spanish.

    Thank you all for your patience to read this!

    [Edited at 2006-09-15 17:00]


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    María José Iglesias  Identity Verified
    Italy
    Local time: 18:55
    Italian to Spanish
    + ...
    Muchas gracias, Henry Sep 15, 2006

    Estimado Henry:

    Deseo simplemente darte las gracias por tu exhaustiva explicación, por tu tiempo y por tu interés en volver a llevar las aguas a su cauce por las vías de la sensatez y del diálogo.
    Yo también deseo de todo el corazón que este foro vuelva a ser un lugar de intercambio y esa "plaza de trabajo" enriquecedora y acogedora donde todos podamos seguir compartiendo información, recursos, puntos de vista, experiencias, satisfacciones e inquietudes relacionadas con nuestra profesión, aprendiendo cada día a convivir mejor y a respetarnos un poco más, aplicando sobre todo la regla en mi opinión más importante: la buena educación.

    Mi augurio es que a partir de tu intervención las reclamaciones y "controversias" de carácter personal (a veces ciertos modos de hablar me recuerdan que en muchos países existe la denuncia por difamación) se resuelvan con serenidad utilizando los mecanismos y las vías que ProZ com ha previsto para esos casos.

    Me parece estupendo denunciar a los estafadores pero también creo que las reglas del buen gusto, de la ética, y de la privacy exigen hacerlo de forma privada, así como aplaudo que las posibles medidas que ProZ.com pueda tomar contra cierto tipo de actitudes engañosas sean asimismo reservadas.

    Yo también estoy cansada de que cada vez que se abre un posting en este foro de lengua española se acabe siempre por criticar de forma poco constructiva. Algunos colegas lo han hecho, aun disintiendo, con gran elegancia. Otros no precisamente de la forma más educada. A veces no es lo que se dice (hablando se entiende la gente, se dice en nuestro idioma) sino CÓMO se dice.

    Espero y deseo que siga siendo posible una convivencia pacífica que nos ayude a crecer, sin sentir que los creadores del sitio y sus moderadores están en un bando y quien disiente en otro. Somos todos colegas y espero que podamos seguir ayudándonos cada uno desde su lugar y en el desempeño de sus propias funciones.

    Muchas gracias una vez más por tu respetuosa intervención que lejos de aburrirme y de hacerme bostezar, he apreciado mucho.

    María José

    [Editado a las 2006-09-15 16:19]


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    Ruben Berrozpe  Identity Verified
    English to Spanish
    Suspiro... Sep 15, 2006

    Perdón por la referencia a mí mismo, pero quisiera copiar esto de otro hilo en el que he intervenido y a donde remito al visitante curioso por conocer las claves de algún que otro comentario en este foro.

    Y con esto, de verdad que ahora sí, buen fin de semana a todos y hasta la vista.

    Rb



    No quisiera que mi "socarrón comentario" se sacase de contexto ni fuese utilizado para hacer crecer una innecesaria bola de nieve de malentendidos y desconfianzas, ni en ésta ni en ninguna otra hebra. No era ésa mi intención por lo que ruego que se tenga esto en cuenta al parafrasear mi(s) palabra(s).

    I wouldn't like my "sarcastic comment" to be pulled out of context nor misused in feeding an unnecessary pile of misunderstanding and mistrust - neither here nor in any other thread. It wasn't my original intention so please keep that in mind when paraphrasing my words.


    http://www.proz.com/post/417540#417540

    “Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit.”
    -- W. Somerset Maugham

    [Edited at 2006-09-15 16:27]
    [Edited at 2006-09-15 16:27]

    [Edited at 2006-09-15 17:13]


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    ICL  Identity Verified
    Spain
    Local time: 18:55
    English to Spanish
    + ...
    Off topic: meaning of "versus" in English (significado de "versus" en inglés) Sep 15, 2006

    Hola Rosa:

    About the following comment you made (sobre el comentario siguiente que hiciste):

    Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:

    I have seen “vs.” used in two instances in English: in box fights and in lawsuits, and -certainly- this discussion does not pretend to be either, or am I mistaken?



    I just want to clarify what the English Webster dictionary electronic format version 1.0 says for "versus" (sólo deseo aclarar la definición que da el diccionario Webster en formato electrónico, versión 1.0, sobre el término "versus"):

    ver-sus (vûr'suhs, -suhz) prep.
    1. against (used esp. to join names of
    parties in a legal case or competing
    teams or players in a sports contest):
    Smith versus Jones; Army versus Navy.
    2. as compared to; in contrast with:
    traveling by plane versus traveling by
    train. Abbr: v., vs.

    The second meaning, as you see, says "as compared to" (como ves, la segunda acepción dice "en comparación con").

    I have mentioned this to help avoid a possible misunderstanding caused by the interpretation of this word (mi intención al mencionar esto es evitar un posible malentendido debido a la interpretación de esta palabra).

    Saludos/Regards,

    Ivette


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    xxxPaul Roige
    Spain
    Local time: 18:55
    English to Spanish
    + ...
    Gracias, María José Sep 15, 2006

    María José Iglesias wrote:

    Estimado Henry:

    Deseo simplemente darte las gracias por tu exhaustiva explicación, por tu tiempo y por tu interés en volver a llevar las aguas a su cauce por las vías de la sensatez y del diálogo.
    Yo también deseo de todo el corazón que este foro vuelva a ser un lugar de intercambio y esa "plaza de trabajo" enriquecedora y acogedora donde todos podamos seguir compartiendo información, recursos, puntos de vista, experiencias, satisfacciones e inquietudes relacionadas con nuestra profesión, aprendiendo cada día a convivir mejor y a respetarnos un poco más, aplicando sobre todo la regla en mi opinión más importante: la buena educación.

    Mi augurio es que a partir de tu intervención las reclamaciones y "controversias" de carácter personal (a veces ciertos modos de hablar me recuerdan que en muchos países existe la denuncia por difamación) se resuelvan con serenidad utilizando los mecanismos y las vías que ProZ com ha previsto para esos casos.

    Me parece estupendo denunciar a los estafadores pero también creo que las reglas del buen gusto, de la ética, y de la privacy exigen hacerlo de forma privada, así como aplaudo que las posibles medidas que ProZ.com pueda tomar contra cierto tipo de actitudes engañosas sean asimismo reservadas.

    Yo también estoy cansada de que cada vez que se abre un posting en este foro de lengua española se acabe siempre por criticar de forma poco constructiva. Algunos colegas lo han hecho, aun disintiendo, con gran elegancia. Otros no precisamente de la forma más educada. A veces no es lo que se dice (hablando se entiende la gente, se dice en nuestro idioma) sino CÓMO se dice.

    Espero y deseo que siga siendo posible una convivencia pacífica que nos ayude a crecer, sin sentir que los creadores del sitio y sus moderadores están en un bando y quien disiente en otro. Somos todos colegas y espero que podamos seguir ayudándonos cada uno desde su lugar y en el desempeño de sus propias funciones.

    Muchas gracias una vez más por tu respetuosa intervención que lejos de aburrirme y de hacerme bostezar, he apreciado mucho.

    María José

    [Editado a las 2006-09-15 16:19]


    No podría exponerlo mejor ni viviendo tres veces. Sólo hay que asumir que existe buena fe y razones de peso. Y de eso doy fe, si en algo vale eso.
    Un saludo
    Paul


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    Enrique Cavalitto
    Local time: 13:55
    SITE STAFF
    Comentarios respecto de los puntos 2 y 3 de Rosa María Sep 15, 2006

    Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:

    2. About the thread opened by Aurora
    Reality speaks louder than words. I begin by stating that this is only my personal perception. Everything you have written on this topic is very compelling, and I would go for it all, if it not were for another forum, this one in English, which was opened almost at the same time as the forum opened in Spanish by Aurora, and on exactly the same topic (http://www.proz.com/topic/55128). Aurora's title was “ofertas ofensivas” and it was changed. However, the title of the English forum: “Job posting: Looking for honest translators…” was not changed to be as specific as the Spanish forum one. We could discuss a lifetime about how more or less explicit the titles are, but the comparison does not end here. While in the Spanish forum there were five staff interventions (three by the Spanish forum moderator, and two by you), and a few postings deleted to maintain the course of the discussion, in the four pages of the English one there was none (well there is one intervention by you, but it is to thank Aurora for what she pointed out). Mind you, at times the debate got very heated in the English forum. However, somehow or other, we managed to keep ourselves in control, and no moderator intervened as such (I think a couple intervened with their points of view). What I am witnessing here is that I have more ‘freedom of speech’ in the English forum than in the Spanish one. The way that I interpret this is that there is an uneven application of rules. And this is one of the main sources of our discontent, I believe. So, why rules apply differently to Spanish and to English forums? If you ask me, this has to do specifically with the moderator.


    Aurora comenzó su hilo preguntando cuál es el sistema actual para que el sitio acepte propuestas de trabajo, y el título se cambió en ese sentido. El hilo en el foro en inglés se inició haciendo referencia al título de un trabajo que pedía “traductores honestos”, por lo que su título era adecuado.

    En el hilo en inglés hay cuatro postings ocultos y se solicitó la edición de un quinto. La libertad de expresión es la misma, sujeta a las mismas reglas. Eventualmente una discusión puede escapar del control de los moderadores por un tiempo, sobre todo en foros que (todavía) no tienen moderadores asignados.



    3. About diverging topics.
    There is another blatant example of discretionary application of Proz.com rules in the forums. Please see: http://www.proz.com/topic/54932. It started as a topic on identity fraud (however, the title was also modified to “No está dentro del alcance del sitio hablar sobre un usuario del mismo”)...


    Eso es erróneo, el título indicado es el originalmente usado por Gabi y no fue editado en absoluto. Por lo demás el posting inicial de Gabi se refería a una duda de traducción, no a un problema de falsas identidades.


    ... but we ended up discussing minimum rates; and even though the Spanish forum moderator participated extensively in it, he never applied the rule to keep the topic from deviating.


    Es cierto que el tema se desvió posteriormente hacia temas de fraude de identidad, pago de moderadores y otros temas.

    Saludos,
    Enrique


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    Rosa Maria Duenas Rios  Identity Verified
    Local time: 12:55
    Thank you for the clarification, Ivette Sep 15, 2006

    ICL wrote:


    ver-sus (vûr'suhs, -suhz) prep.
    1. against (used esp. to join names of
    parties in a legal case or competing
    teams or players in a sports contest):
    Smith versus Jones; Army versus Navy.
    2. as compared to; in contrast with:
    traveling by plane versus traveling by
    train. Abbr: v., vs.

    I have mentioned this to help avoid a possible misunderstanding caused by the interpretation of this word (mi intención al mencionar esto es evitar un posible malentendido debido a la interpretación de esta palabra).

    Saludos/Regards,

    Ivette [/quote]

    I believe it only stresses the importance of asking Henry to modify the title he chose, in order to avoid adding even more misunderstandings to this delicate situation.

    [Edited at 2006-09-15 18:48]


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    ICL  Identity Verified
    Spain
    Local time: 18:55
    English to Spanish
    + ...
    Off topic: Part 2 - Parte 2 (apologies/disculpas) Sep 15, 2006

    Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:

    I believe it only stresses the importance of asking Henry to modify the title he chose, in order to avoid adding even more misunderstandings to this delicate situation.



    Rosa, with all due respect, if someone misunderstands a word's meaning, is this misunderstanding caused by the person who uses the word or by the person who interprets the word?

    I personally do not see anything evil or ill-intended in using the equivalent of the phrase "in comparison to" in the mentioned title, because I interpreted the meaning in the second way described by Webster. That was my point.

    But please accept my apologies if my clarification offended you in any way.

    Good night,

    Ivette

    P.D.: perdón por escribir en inglés, pero como he recibido la respuesta en inglés, he seguido esta lógica.


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    Enrique Cavalitto
    Local time: 13:55
    SITE STAFF
    Respuesta al punto 6a de Rosa María Sep 15, 2006

    Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:

    6. To conclude, two requests:
    a) I wish the sanctions imposed to the colleagues who broke the rules could be suspended, so that they are able to contribute to this forum, if they so desire. We all know too well that if they have to wait until they have done their “time”, the topic will have probably faded by then.


    Acabo de rehabilitar el libre acceso de escritura a los foros del sitio para las cuatro personas cuyo acceso había sido bloqueado recientemente.

    Saludos,
    Enrique


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    Rosa Maria Duenas Rios  Identity Verified
    Local time: 12:55
    Muchas gracias, Enrique Sep 15, 2006

    Enrique wrote:

    Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:

    6. To conclude, two requests:
    a) I wish the sanctions imposed to the colleagues who broke the rules could be suspended, so that they are able to contribute to this forum, if they so desire. We all know too well that if they have to wait until they have done their “time”, the topic will have probably faded by then.


    Acabo de rehabilitar el libre acceso de escritura a los foros del sitio para las cuatro personas cuyo acceso había sido bloqueado recientemente.

    Saludos,
    Enrique


    Pero son cinco, entiendo que también Javier Herrera estaba suspendido. ¿Podría rehabilitarse a todos?


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