"We better..." or "We had better..." - To English grammar experts
Luisa Ramos, CT United States Local time: 21:42 Member (2004) English to Spanish + ...
TOPIC STARTER
I am glad I asked
Apr 19, 2010
I have been following this lively conversation. As my friend can attest, she never has to repeat her suggestions so, from now on, I will never forget the "had" and I will even try to remember using "should" instead (I am sure this will yield another interesting round of replies).
I have learned a great deal today. Thank you all for taking time to post your answers.
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Neil Coffey United Kingdom Local time: 02:42 Member (2009) French to English + ...
"should" and "had better" imply different things
Apr 20, 2010
Brian Young wrote:
I agree with all the comments about "had better", but you would do well to write "we should". "Had better" is a terrible sounding phrase that I would never use. It has a tinge of "hillbillyese",at least in my ears.
To me, "had better" sounds absolutely fine in the right context. But it implies something slightly different to "should":
"You'd better be on time tonight!"
(implies an urgent need which will have consequences on this particular occasion)
"When you make an arrangement with somebody, you should arrive on time."
(implies general advice, but not necessarily a worse-than-usual consequence if the advice isn't obeyed on this particular occasion)
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Marijke Singer United Kingdom Local time: 02:42 Member Dutch to English + ...
Both correct depending on the context
Apr 20, 2010
See what Oxford has to say: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/better?view=uk
USAGE In the phrase had better do something the word had acts like an auxiliary verb and in informal spoken contexts it is often dropped, as in you better not come tonight. In writing, the had may be contracted to ’d but it should not be dropped altogether.
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Brian Young United States Local time: 18:42 Danish to English
should or had better
Apr 20, 2010
I agree with Neil's comments, but I don't feel any sense of urgency or threat of consequences in the original statement; "We better send Brown back to school". Maybe there is, but it is such a worn out phrase that it can be found anywhere. I think it would be preferable to say, in that case, "must", although I realize that does not contain the implication of consequences that Neil points out.
But, a point well taken. I know that I personally could never use the phrase "had better". It just makes me think about bare feet and corn cob pipes. But, all of this is what makes language so interesting.
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Luisa Ramos, CT United States Local time: 21:42 Member (2004) English to Spanish + ...
TOPIC STARTER
More of a "roasted pig and black beans" sort of gal
Apr 20, 2010
Brian Young wrote:
"It just makes me think about bare feet and corn cob pipes. But, all of this is what makes language so interesting."
Yes, Brian, this is what makes language so interesting and the reason why not too many people can call themselves "natives" of other languages. I was unaware of this "hillbillyese" impression that some natives might get from the "had better"; you see, I am more of a "roasted pig and black beans" sort of gal.
The original sentence was a feedback comment on a statement that a witness to a crime here in Miami gave to the press. It carried no sense of threat or warning. Actually, I thought that including the "had" would add precisely that meaning to the phrase, and that was the origin of the exchange with my friend and the reason why I decided to post the question.
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Brian Young United States Local time: 18:42 Danish to English
makes me hungry just reading that
Apr 20, 2010
I love roasted beans, and barefeet in the summer, and I agree about the idea of being a "native" speaker, as I would only claim to be a "native" speaker withing my own limited cultural area and experience. I realize that many people will have a different take on this. I did not mean to criticise any particular usage. I only expressed how I would feel comfortable writing in a particular set of circumstances. Unless I know otherwise, I tend to be conservative, and to at least try to avoid what I might consider to be too "folksy".
I think you are correct in that adding "had" would reinforce the sense of threat or warning that we both, apparently, would not have found in "better" alone.
Now you "better" get back to your beans before they get cold!
or
Now, get back to your beans before they get cold!
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I am dismayed to see that more than a few in this "had better" discussion flatly assert that this or that usage is "correct" English, as though this had some real meaning. Contrary to the notion conveyed by elementary and high school "grammar” teachers in the U.S., there is no Official Rule Book of English (“There just ain’t no such thing!”, I tell college students). Surely every English-speaking polyglot must know this.
Whether a sentence like "I ain't got no money" is "correct" English is a moot point. Some hold, of course, that this is "substandard usage", but this sentence occurs thousands of times daily in the speech of native-born English speakers. "I not money have", on the other hand, is not English.
Are sentences like "You had better pay him" or "I had rather stay home” English? They are indeed, and are hardly just hillbilly speech:
(Example 1) King James Bible, Psalm 84: 10: "For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."
(Example 2) Shakespeare, Julius Caesar, 4.3.27: "I had rather be a dog and bay the moon, Than such a Roman."
The real issue of interest in "You had better pay him" is the question: What is the verb in this sentence? I am disappointed to find that no one weighing in here has addressed this matter, as I feel it arises inevitably if we take time to consider exactly what the sentence means, instead of hastening to judge whether it’s “correct” English.
Fowler (Modern English Usage: had) tells us
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The word had in this phrase is not the mere auxiliary of mood or tense, but a true verb meaning find: You had better do it = You would find to-do-it better; You had better have done it = You would find to-have-done-it better.
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I find the Dictionary of Contemporary American Usage (had better, had rather) even clearer:
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In both cases had is used in its original sense of “hold” and is a subjunctive meaning “would hold.” During the nineteenth century would rather was felt to be “purer” English than had rather, chiefly because the grammarians did not recognize the subjunctive had and so could not parse the phrase.
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As to omitting the "had", Webster's Dictionary of English Usage (better 2) says
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The use of better for had better, (See also had better, had best) is rejected by a couple of critics, but Copperud 1970 says that the consensus is that it is not open to serious criticism. Longman 1984 notes that it is also used in informal British English.
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WDEU then cites examples from Flannery O’Connor, E. L. Doctorow, and John F. Kennedy.
--Pops Finn
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Rachel Fell United Kingdom Local time: 02:42 Member (2005) French to English + ...
had/'d
Nov 14, 2010
Amy Williams wrote:
I use the spoken "we better" all the time, and so do most of my peers. "We better wash the car - it's covered in volcanic ash."
[Edited at 2010-04-19 16:13 GMT]
Am surprised to hear this: as a native UK speaker I never omit the "had" - "we had" - or, more usually in speech, the "'d" - we'd".
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Raúl Casanova Uruguay Local time: 22:42 Member (2007) English to Spanish
Non native concern
Nov 16, 2010
While reading through this very interesting thread, I shared it with a friend and we started a parallel discussion. In the way we both were taught English (as a second language) some 60 years ago, the contraction We’d stands for We should. Accordingly, the expression “We’d better send Brown to school” is correct in either oral or written form. The non contracted version would be “We should better send Brown to school”
However, if we say or write “We had better send Brown to school”, I find a verbal tense discrepancy between “had” (past tense) and “send” (present tense). The workaround for this issue would be shifting to either “We had better sent Brown to school” or “We should better send Brown to School”
While I won’t dare to contend with native English speakers about the common usage of the expression, I just want to find out if my approach is correct (I’m in the same line as the topic starter), or perhaps outdated, or just that what I was taught was wrong.
I also found a brief explanation at this site: http://www.englishpage.com/modals/hadbetter.html
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Rachel Fell United Kingdom Local time: 02:42 Member (2005) French to English + ...
'd better
Nov 16, 2010
Raúl Casanova wrote:
In the way we both were taught English (as a second language) some 60 years ago, the contraction We’d stands for We should. Accordingly, the expression “We’d better send Brown to school” is correct in either oral or written form. The non contracted version would be “We should better send Brown to school”
However, if we say or write “We had better send Brown to school”, I find a verbal tense discrepancy between “had” (past tense) and “send” (present tense). The workaround for this issue would be shifting to either “We had better sent Brown to school” or “We should better send Brown to School”
Hi Raúl, I don't think we can say "should better" - it's "had better", as johntfinn has cited above:
"Fowler (Modern English Usage: had) tells us
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The word had in this phrase is not the mere auxiliary of mood or tense, but a true verb meaning find: You had better do it = You would find to-do-it better; You had better have done it = You would find to-have-done-it better."
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opolt Germany Local time: 03:42 Member (2010) English to German + ...
Thank you
Nov 16, 2010
I just wanted to say that this must be the most interesting thread in all my Proz time, which is only about half a year, but anyway
There's so much room for dispute and interpretation wrt to language related matters in the English speaking world, sometimes you actually wonder how they manage to keep speaking the same language. As johntfinn has pointed out, there's actually no standard rulebook -- quite the opposite of the German speaking zone here in Europe, where everyone is obsessed with rules and all that, "it's in the Duden so it must be true, no matter how stupid". Very different mindset.
Thank you all for this enlightening discussion!
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. As johntfinn has pointed out, there's actually no standard rulebook -- quite the opposite of the German speaking zone here in Europe, where everyone is obsessed with rules and all that, "it's in the Duden so it must be true, no matter how stupid". Very different mindset.