| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Why do translators translate into a language that is not their mother tongue? Thread poster: liz askew
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liz askew 
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:49
Member (2007)
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | The UK is an example | Apr 8, 2008 |
Thank you for your contribution, Tatty. It is important to get views from all over the world, and realise that there are differences between translators in different parts of the world, as well as standards, laws [or lack thereof], cultural differences, that govern how we all work and what work opportunities are available to us. I doubt we can expect the same standards everywhere, but standards are what it all boils down to.
I just thank my lucky stars that I was born in the Unite... See more Thank you for your contribution, Tatty. It is important to get views from all over the world, and realise that there are differences between translators in different parts of the world, as well as standards, laws [or lack thereof], cultural differences, that govern how we all work and what work opportunities are available to us. I doubt we can expect the same standards everywhere, but standards are what it all boils down to.
I just thank my lucky stars that I was born in the United Kingdom
Liz ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Real life in companies | Apr 8, 2008 |
My experience is very similar to what Christine describes so accurately.
In private companies just a minimum part of translations is generally done externally. The large majority is usually done in-house, not by translators, but by members of the staff who know another language.
My partner works for a big German car industry here in Italy. The official corporate language for internal communications is English. My partner has studied English at school, he can speak it w... See more My experience is very similar to what Christine describes so accurately.
In private companies just a minimum part of translations is generally done externally. The large majority is usually done in-house, not by translators, but by members of the staff who know another language.
My partner works for a big German car industry here in Italy. The official corporate language for internal communications is English. My partner has studied English at school, he can speak it well enough to make himself understood. But he ends up having to write emails and documents in English to his German colleagues, and also having to translate into English communications that his director has to send to Germany or other countries. (He calls me every other day to check if he is translating correctly).
Some of my older clients of the Finance industry in Italy have stopped sending me work because they have decided to have it done in-house. Not by hiring a professional translator, but destinating one of their staff who knows English/French to do all the translations (to and from English/French). They sometimes end up sending me the document half translated to finish and polish (I revert the English/French translations to a native speaking translator): the quality is usually awful. It seems though that companies seem to be satisfied enough of the result.
For us this may seem absurd ("you expect a high quality from us and then accept such a low quality in your in-house translations"). For us it is normal that translations must be done by a professional translator. For us it is normal to translate only into the language we know (almost) perfectly. But for those that do not work in this sector, it is not so clear.
Most of them use professional translators only for very very important texts. Everything else is done by normal staff members who know nothing of translation. ▲ Collapse
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 09:49
French to English
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| times are changing... | Apr 8, 2008 |
Liz,
I, too, was born in the UK but have lived more than half my life in French-speaking countries. What does that make me?
When I worked as a staffer (most of my career by far) as an Interpreter- Translator, we always did written translations into our mother tongue. There were 3 working languages and therefore 3 teams. So far, so good.
However, for interpreting, even though for years in simultaneous we worked into our mother tongue from the 2 other languages, in... See more Liz,
I, too, was born in the UK but have lived more than half my life in French-speaking countries. What does that make me?
When I worked as a staffer (most of my career by far) as an Interpreter- Translator, we always did written translations into our mother tongue. There were 3 working languages and therefore 3 teams. So far, so good.
However, for interpreting, even though for years in simultaneous we worked into our mother tongue from the 2 other languages, in the end they started making savings by cutting down the teams from 6 to 5, from 5 to 4 - they may have even gone down to 3 now, for all I know! This meant that working from C to A, B to A and even from A to B or C to B became part of the deal. We had no choice in the matter - play ball or resign. Ultimately I did, indeed, leave but this issue was only one of the minor reasons.
In consecutive, in the meantime, we always had to work both ways between A and B. Even if we had 2 interpreters to cover 3 languages, it was inevitable.
However, as others have said, we are talking here about the SPOKEN word and, although, important, nobody is going to shoot you if you make slight grammatical errors here and there - it even happens, at speed, in simultaneous in one's own language, so..... people tend to be tolerant as long as the facts and the message are correct.
In written translation, it is much more noticeable if you get things wrong. The spoken word is evanescent; the written word remains. It remains, however, true that for some langauge pairs, as this forum has shown, beggars cannot always be choosers. Although I feel that one should, in principle, work towards one's mother tongue, it may not always be possible. In my own case, I have been in the French-speaking world so long, when it comes to writing my own texts, I find it easier to write in French than in English these days. I am currently writing an account of a great trip we did recently and I am doing it in French first before translating myself into English (and I'm even finding that tough). In terms of cultural references, mine are now more French than English. And, yes, I do do a lot of (writing) work directly in French. Everything, in all languages is proof-read by natives, so....
I am much more up in arms about the in-house jobs done by non-translators to save firms money. 9 times out of 10, it is a case of garbage in, garbage out. The real problem is that translation - and interpreting for that matter - are service industries and, when times are hard, where do they begin to make cuts.....
If we lived in an ideal world...... but then in an ideal world, a lot of other things would be different, too.
[Edited at 2008-04-08 11:21]
[Edited at 2008-04-08 11:21]
[Edited at 2008-04-08 11:23] ▲ Collapse
| | | | ~Ania~
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:49
Polish to English
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| Are you kidding? | Apr 8, 2008 |
liz askew wrote: I just thank my lucky stars that I was born in the United Kingdom Liz
I don't know about others Liz, but I find that statement highly offensive...
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| Off topic (a bit), but related | Apr 8, 2008 |
I'd like ask why translators translate from and into two foreign languages. In everyday pairs like French-English and English-French, German-English, etc. An increasing number of questions are being posted on Kudoz by 'third language' translators, who are struggling between 2 languages, neither of which is their mother tongue .
Is there any justification for this, apart from just saying yes to a job that's offered?
 ... See more I'd like ask why translators translate from and into two foreign languages. In everyday pairs like French-English and English-French, German-English, etc. An increasing number of questions are being posted on Kudoz by 'third language' translators, who are struggling between 2 languages, neither of which is their mother tongue .
Is there any justification for this, apart from just saying yes to a job that's offered?
 ▲ Collapse
| | | | Margreet Logmans (X)
Netherlands
Local time: 09:49
English to Dutch
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writeaway wrote: I'd like to ask why translators translate from and into two foreign languages. In everyday pairs like French-English and English-French, German-English, etc. An increasing number of questions are being posted on Kudoz by 'third language' translators, who are struggling between 2 languages, neither of which is their mother tongue . Is there any justification for this, apart from just saying yes to a job that's offered?
Hi writeaway,
I have been offered (very few) jobs German-English (my native language is Dutch) and declined. I suppose the reasoning is: if she can translate German into Dutch, and also Dutch into English, then it is logical to assume that she can also translate German into English.
I declined, because after taking a look at the text I realised I was (in my mind, not on paper/screen) indeed following that order: German-Dutch-English. It was tiring and time-consuming. And I think working this way, one would be in fact doing a translation of a translation. Not good for quality. And since it would have taken me so much time, it's not good for business either.
Not sure about others, but I've made up my mind. I won't do it. I agree with your observations. The number of 'third language' questions is increasing. And that's not a good thing, IMHO.
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:49
Flemish to English
+ ...
| Several reasons | Apr 8, 2008 |
1. Practise makes perfect and if you do not practise translation into another language, you tend to forget a lot.
2. English is not the exclusive "property" of natives of English, but the "lingua franca" of the world. The BBC (1,2,3,4 and the worldservice) is a good quality, ready avaible English teacher. Every evening, I amuse myself jotting down two or three idoms or look for their counterparts in French or German. Besides with London as a hub for aircraft, trains and financial se... See more 1. Practise makes perfect and if you do not practise translation into another language, you tend to forget a lot.
2. English is not the exclusive "property" of natives of English, but the "lingua franca" of the world. The BBC (1,2,3,4 and the worldservice) is a good quality, ready avaible English teacher. Every evening, I amuse myself jotting down two or three idoms or look for their counterparts in French or German. Besides with London as a hub for aircraft, trains and financial services, Britain is far away from say Brussels, where English is widely spoken.
3. There is not demand for interpreting into Dutch.
I do not want to be "lost in translation" forever.
I am a social person and prefer human contact.
Translation does not offer that, interpreting does.
4. In the stone-age, before the dawning of the age of A..., proz.com and a certain café, nobody ever taught me the first command of translation: "thy shalt translate into thy native language only".
As an inhouse, translations landed on your desk and you just translated, whatever the language.
5. I am not an egotripper and let others check my translations into other languages.
6. To graduate as a translator, you had to be able to translate both ways.
7. Your business model: "I" am the "best" or "we" are the best.
For productivity reasons: I believe in M.T. as an aide and production output tool. Very few M.T. are available that produce reasonable translations into Dutch.
Langenscheidt's T1 is far better (German English,GermanSpanish, German French ). You get the gist of the text and simple rewrite it into good English or have others in another time-zone rewrite the texts.
8. I just should forget that I am fluent in English (learnt my first word in 1973),French (learnt my first word at the same time), German (first word in 1977) and Spanish (first word in 1980) and not practise those languages.
9. The subject matter is important.
From a translation offer: An annual report. Requirements: Native only and trados (discount) required. Is a knowlegde of accounting and analysis of the annual report not required?
[Bijgewerkt op 2008-04-08 15:52] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 09:49
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
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SITE LOCALIZER | My reasons for a yes... | Apr 8, 2008 |
My mother language is not English - when I joined ProZ, I assumed Canadian would be good enough. Rather soon I changed my mind and asked ProZ to remove "mother language English" from my site. They're still working on it (g).
Why do I do English as a target language?
A famous bank robber was asked, why he kept robbing banks. His answer:"H*ll, that's where the money is".
reason 1: that's where the money is
The second reason why I accept... See more My mother language is not English - when I joined ProZ, I assumed Canadian would be good enough. Rather soon I changed my mind and asked ProZ to remove "mother language English" from my site. They're still working on it (g).
Why do I do English as a target language?
A famous bank robber was asked, why he kept robbing banks. His answer:"H*ll, that's where the money is".
reason 1: that's where the money is
The second reason why I accept now and then such orders:
reason 2: there's tons of pre-translation tools for English
...and some of them are (disconcertingly) good - so it's relatively easy money. Of course I try to keep subjects on the McD level. And I dont think it amounts to more than 10% of my throughput.
[Edited at 2008-04-08 15:01] ▲ Collapse
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liz askew
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:49
Member (2007)
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Are you kidding? | Apr 8, 2008 |
I do not understand your question.
What on earth is offensive about saying I am proud to be born in the United Kingdom??
I love my country and my language and think I am lucky to have been born here. What on earth is wrong with saying that for goodness sake.
Were you to say you were lucky to be born in Poland/France/Germany because you were born there, or anybody else for that matter, that would not offend me in the slightest. I would be glad to hear you ... See more I do not understand your question.
What on earth is offensive about saying I am proud to be born in the United Kingdom??
I love my country and my language and think I am lucky to have been born here. What on earth is wrong with saying that for goodness sake.
Were you to say you were lucky to be born in Poland/France/Germany because you were born there, or anybody else for that matter, that would not offend me in the slightest. I would be glad to hear you loved your country and were proud of it!
Liz ▲ Collapse
| | | | Steven Capsuto
United States
Local time: 03:49
Member (2004)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Made me cringe a bit, too | Apr 8, 2008 |
liz askew wrote:
I do not understand your question.
What on earth is offensive about saying I am proud to be born in the United Kingdom??
There's nothing wrong with it in principle. The problem was the wording, which smacked -- ever so slightly -- of the sort of jingoism I usually associate with my own country.
It's fine to praise one's own land, but you seemed to be putting down everyone else's cultural values in the process. (Paraphrase: After hearing the silly things you all think out in those other countries, thank God I'm British!)
At the time, I decided not to comment on it because I really don't think it was your intent to offend anyone. But apparently several of us read it that way.
[Edited at 2008-04-08 15:41]
| | | | liz askew
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:49
Member (2007)
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Made me cringe a bit too | Apr 8, 2008 |
I won't apologise for what I said. The intention was certainly not to offend anybody.
I must be a minority of one to say I am proud of the UK - most people slag it off. So to say you felt like cringing amazed me as we Brits hardly EVER praise our country - exactly the opposite in actual fact!
I was merely expressing how I felt.
Like with everything else, we can interpret what we read/hear whichever way we choose; most of the time it depends on our own lif... See more I won't apologise for what I said. The intention was certainly not to offend anybody.
I must be a minority of one to say I am proud of the UK - most people slag it off. So to say you felt like cringing amazed me as we Brits hardly EVER praise our country - exactly the opposite in actual fact!
I was merely expressing how I felt.
Like with everything else, we can interpret what we read/hear whichever way we choose; most of the time it depends on our own life experiences/prejudices/background/mood/self-image...you name it.
As an interpreter, I have to faithfully interpret every word both sides say and have to be impartial; i.e. non-judgemental and accurate.
For the first time in my life I openly expressed I was proud of being born in the UK and of course people interpreted it differently to what I meant. Seems we are not allowed to express an opinion/how we feel nowadays; people put their own spin on everything. And yet as an interpreter I am CONSTANTLY giving people the possibility of expressing their view without judging them.
There you go, that's life.
Liz ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kristina Kolic
Croatia
Local time: 09:49
English to Croatian
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SITE LOCALIZER | Pride & Prejudice - Native vs. Qualified | Apr 8, 2008 |
I really don't see why translators should only translate into their mother tongue provided that they are fluent in both languages and knowledgeable about the specific field. With all due respect, the mere fact of being born in a country doesn’t necessarily make you a language expert or a good translator. What makes you a good translator is rather your knowledge and command of a language, which requires an ongoing lifelong education (studying, reading, learning, speaking and working as a transl... See more I really don't see why translators should only translate into their mother tongue provided that they are fluent in both languages and knowledgeable about the specific field. With all due respect, the mere fact of being born in a country doesn’t necessarily make you a language expert or a good translator. What makes you a good translator is rather your knowledge and command of a language, which requires an ongoing lifelong education (studying, reading, learning, speaking and working as a translator) including, last but not least, a specialization. And we all know what a specialization involves…
I have seen too many translations done by native speakers (regardless of the language pair), which were poor, inaccurate or misleading because of the use of an inappropriate register or a lack of knowledge of the terminology either in the source or target language. I am not referring to general correspondence, conversation or literature, for which native speakers can indeed provide a better translation (provided, in the case of literature, that they are knowledgeable about literature of their own country), but to specialized texts (legal, financial, contracts and the like).
The fact is that if you are fluent in both languages and if you really know the subject, i.e. the specific source and target language terminology, it should make absolutely no difference for you to translate from or into your mother tongue. As bilingual translators, how could we justify to a client being able, for instance, to provide a FR-EN translation of a contract between a client and a contractor, but not being able to provide a EN-FR translation of the contractor’s amendments to the same contract or specifications. I just cannot imagine myself explaining to my client that I, as an expert, am his best choice for translating from French into English, but that I cannot translate for him from English into French?! There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the client’s first thought would be that I am no expert at all. And he would be right! How could I pretend to be an expert in translations specialized in finance if I am not fluent in both languages and do not know the financial terminology in BOTH languages?
It is, however, much easier to provide written translations than interpreting services. From my own experience, I think that interpreting is much more demanding since you have to make the right choice (terminology, register) right away. And the audience will also notice right away whether you are a good interpreter or not. You cannot check or double-check any term that you use while interpreting. You cannot wait, check in dictionaries or glossaries, check your previous translations, search the Internet, post a KudoZ question, consult fellow translators or the like (only your booth mate could actually help you find a more accurate term to be used from that moment onwards, if she knows it); there is no possible excuse for memory blanks, silences, insecurity or the like: although it may happen that you do not know or remember a specific term, you just have to use your best endeavors to render the message as accurately as possible without the audience noticing that you had a “problem”. And this requires fluency, skills and experience.
I fully agree with what Christine and Steven said earlier. English has always been widely spread and used in smaller countries and still is a MUST as the governing language used in financial dealings and international contracts and trade. I also agree with other Proziens who mentioned the lack of English native speakers speaking our languages as well as the financial aspects. I would just like to add a personal note: I was born in France where I lived, grew up, studied and started my career. Since both my mother and father were Croats, I spoke Croatian at home and with Croatian friends, and otherwise French. I studied English, Spanish and German. I started my career in an international company, where all reports (financial, marketing and the like) had to be translated from French into English and vice-versa, not to mention the subsidiaries in Spain. I have spent one or two months every year in Spain, which is probably the reason why I fell in love with the Spanish language and considered Spain as my second home.
I was to take up a position in Germany in the scope of a cooperation exchange, but instead I decided to move to Croatia, where I have been living now for 17 years working as a professional translator. And I do provide translations services from Croatian into English and French as well as from English and French into Croatian, in which I consider myself to be fluent. I would, however, not translate from English into French or vice-versa for the mere reason that I have not done it for years and lost the “mental exercise” in this pair. However, every time I have to check a term, I check it in all of my working languages and not just in the language into which I have to translate it. And I find it quite helpful and enriching.
And just for the records: I thank my lucky stars, not for being born in a specific country or for being fluent in a specific language, but for the opportunity that I had to learn several foreign languages, for being able to communicate with people all over the world and for the fact that I love my work and the world of translation, as imperfect as it might be… ▲ Collapse
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liz askew
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:49
Member (2007)
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Pride & Prejudice Native & Qualified | Apr 8, 2008 |
Glad to hear you are a happy bunny!
And just for the records: I thank my lucky stars, not for being born in a specific country or for being fluent in a specific language, but for the opportunity that I had to learn several foreign languages, for being able to communicate with people all over the world and for the fact that I love my work and the world of translation, as imperfect as it might be
I take everything you say on board.
I still insis... See more Glad to hear you are a happy bunny!
And just for the records: I thank my lucky stars, not for being born in a specific country or for being fluent in a specific language, but for the opportunity that I had to learn several foreign languages, for being able to communicate with people all over the world and for the fact that I love my work and the world of translation, as imperfect as it might be
I take everything you say on board.
I still insist I would never translate into a non-native language. My experience, qualifications and reputation are pretty good (I don't want to blow my trumpet here) but I do have limitations and would NEVER say that I am totally trilingual. I even have difficulty translating into my own language, looking up things and checking things constantly, so if I had to do it into Spanish and French as well I would be tearing my hair out. I could NEVER be as proficient in Spanish and French medical terminology as I am in English medical terminology, but I am still learning about the latter - it is an endless subject. I don't know everything. Hence my insistence I only translate into my own native language.
Some of you obviously are very confident in your professional abilities and do not want them questioned. Fair enough.
And when I talk of native speakers in my correspondence, I should have been clearer and said "Native speakers who are linguists" as there is no way that I believe that a person can do translation or interpreting without being a competent linguist. It's not the work for any Tom, Dick or Harry, otherwise we would all be translators or interpreters, just as we would all be builders/bus drivers/lawyers, or whatever. Each to his/her own.
I wish you well.
Liz
[Edited at 2008-04-08 16:13] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | We're good at learning languages; we just don't get the chance | Apr 8, 2008 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
I am afraid we English speakers are not as good at learning languages as many others. The percentage of English natives who speak another language really well, let alone two or three, is minimal compared with e.g. the Scandinavians or the Dutch. Here I don't just mean for holiday and social purposes, but well enough to negotiate a business transaction or learn a profession with half the professional literature in a foreign language (and I'm talking engineers, doctors, lab technicians and secretaries, not just linguists).
Maybe the situation is different in the UK, but in the US the problem is not that we're not good at languages. We simply don't get the opportunity to learn early enough to make a difference. Languages are not emphasized in school. I started learning German at the age of 16, for example - much too late. Believe me, although I obtained the degree in the end, I felt that disadvantage when I studied translation at MIIS and had to do all of my coursework into German as well as into English alongside Germans, Austrians and Swiss who had been speaking English since they were 6 or 7.
On the flip side, my 8 yr. old daughter is now in a two-way immersion program (Spanish-English) and has been learning Spanish for a large portion of her school day since she was 5. That sort of educational approach would make a difference in our language abilities as a nation (hence more potential native-English translators), but this type of program is still very rare, unfortunately.
| | | | liz askew
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:49
Member (2007)
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | mmihano - lack of native English speakers | Apr 8, 2008 |
'there are very few English native speakers able to translate from Croatian into English, that's why many translators actually translate into both directions.
Some of them are even not aware of how dangerouls this can be and are feeling quite comfortable with it'
This was one of the reasons behind my question.....it does concern me, particularly in a field such as medicine.
The local hospital trust here had problems with interpreters who just weren't up to ... See more 'there are very few English native speakers able to translate from Croatian into English, that's why many translators actually translate into both directions.
Some of them are even not aware of how dangerouls this can be and are feeling quite comfortable with it'
This was one of the reasons behind my question.....it does concern me, particularly in a field such as medicine.
The local hospital trust here had problems with interpreters who just weren't up to doing medical terminology..and it is very worrying for patients too. Hence they have recently changed how they employ interpreters, but I won't go in to that here...
Liz ▲ Collapse
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