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UK translators: do you use -ize or -ise?
Thread poster: Jan Sundström
Marc P (X)
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"UK translators: do you use -ize or -ise?" Aug 20, 2008

Textklick wrote:

So coming from the German: "Der Ersatzreifen befindet sich im Kofferraum" do we say "The spare tire is situated in the trunk", or "The spare tyre is situated in the boot."


The spare wheel is in the luggage compartment, Textklick.

Or perhaps not: there's a can of ultraseal instead. Now we know why: it's to save cost to the manufacturer, that of translating the owner's manual into US *and* UK English.

Marc

P.S. I still use -ize.

[Edited at 2008-08-20 12:58]


 
JPW (X)
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Be diplomatic Aug 20, 2008

So coming from the German: "Der Ersatzreifen befindet sich im Kofferraum" do we say "The spare tire is situated in the trunk", or "The spare tyre is situated in the boot."


Tell them the spare tyre is located at the back of the vehicle!


 
Textklick
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In memoriam
Disagree Aug 20, 2008

Marc P wrote:

The spare wheel is in the luggage compartment, Textklick.


Herr Prior:

Muret Sanders: "Ersatzreifen m spare tyre (Am. tire)
Whylidal: "Ersatzreifen / spare tire US, spare tyre GB

Ergo - dodgy source text! That's nothing new, but demonstrates the point.

Chris


 
JPW (X)
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Consistency is the main thing, surely? Aug 20, 2008

So I agree with Textklick (is that spelled in US or UK?) about whatever your local rule, there are words which are always spelled -ise (see his post for the list).

After that, stick to one or the other, or more pertinent, your editor/client/PM etc. can give you a 'style guide'. In the publishing world, that's what it boils down to a lot of the time: the house preference for one or the other.

It's the lack of consistency w
... See more
So I agree with Textklick (is that spelled in US or UK?) about whatever your local rule, there are words which are always spelled -ise (see his post for the list).

After that, stick to one or the other, or more pertinent, your editor/client/PM etc. can give you a 'style guide'. In the publishing world, that's what it boils down to a lot of the time: the house preference for one or the other.

It's the lack of consistency which bugs me generally. I am reading an otherwise fine book, translated from French to English (the author is actually Belgian) but it is full of the most appalling errors: words repeated, like "we got back to our our positions"; "and" spelled as "an"; no accents applied to foreign words/names; foreign names not spelled consistently (e.g. Alonso/Alonzo for the same person) and the list goes on.

I am not thinking so much "Who translated this?" as "Who was the editor of this book, and how did (s)he get away with it???"
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Marc P (X)
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Disagree with your disagree :-) Aug 20, 2008

Textklick,

I maintain that spare *wheel* (not spare tyre) is the more common UK term. (Not that that necessarily makes it preferable, although in this case it also more logical.)

In the UK, "spare tyre" is an anatomical term, not an automotive one.

Marc


 
lexical
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Spare tyre Aug 20, 2008

Marc P wrote:

In the UK, "spare tyre" is an anatomical term, not an automotive one.

Marc


As someone has has one, I can attest to this.


 
George Hopkins
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He Aug 21, 2008

Referring to the above (s)he in:
I am not thinking so much "Who translated this?" as "Who was the editor of this book, and how did (s)he get away with it???"

In standard English (Collins), 'he' (quote): refers to a person or animal of unknown or unspecified sex.
Ie, (s)he is unnecessary.


 
Oliver Walter
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My view, adopted tradenames, US-GB dicos Aug 25, 2008

Tom in London wrote:
... "estate agent",.... "realtor".
... "Fawcet",... "Jackhammer",... "pneumatic drill").

Paradoxically, in British English we use the verb "to hoover" when cleaning our ....flats, but to Americans this means nothing. They "vacuum", believe it or not.
[Cut down by OW]


I don't think anybody has explicitly mentioned the, perhaps obvious, fact that the "-ize" - "-ise" question only applies to verbs, (therefore nouns "size", "prize" aren't in the argument at all), and not even to all verbs.

My practice is (like some others who replied) to use "-ise" if I think or am told that the readers will be UK, and "-ize" if there are likely to be non-UK readers. I consider both to be acceptable in British English, but "-ise" to be preferable when there is a choice.

"Hoovering" etc.: For me (native BE-speaker) "to Hoover" means "to use a vacuum cleaner made by Hoover". I always use "vacuum cleaner", "vacuuming" etc. when I am not referring to that specific make. Similarly, for me, all Biros are ball-point pens but not all ball-point pens are biros, all Sellotape is sticky tape but not vice versa.

I've found a couple of US-GB dictionaries that may be useful:
http://www.af4k.com/english.htm
http://www.bu.edu/mfeldman/Slang/glossary.html

Greetings from Oliver


 
Angela Dickson (X)
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"Standard English" Aug 25, 2008

George Hopkins wrote:

Referring to the above (s)he in:
I am not thinking so much "Who translated this?" as "Who was the editor of this book, and how did (s)he get away with it???"

In standard English (Collins), 'he' (quote): refers to a person or animal of unknown or unspecified sex.
Ie, (s)he is unnecessary.


What is 'standard English'? I'll stick my neck out and guess that in the preface/foreword to your dictionary there is a section that explains that when creating this dictionary the authors have attempted to reflect usage and not dictate it.

I have a Collins English Dictionary, subtitled 'The Authority On Current English', updated edition, 1995, and it contains the definition of 'he' as you cite it. I do not interpret this as an instruction, rather as authoritative information about how the word 'he' is used. I and many others choose not to use 'he' in this way, and seek other solutions when referring to someone of undetermined sex.


 
Marie-Hélène Hayles
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Nothing to do with Microsoft! Aug 25, 2008

I'm amazed by the number of posters blaming Microsoft for the resurgence of the -ise form and claiming that all us Brits happily used -ize before then. Sorry, but it's simply not true! I learned to write in the early 1970s - well before the era of home computing, let alone the dominance of Microsoft - and was taught the -ise form, which I have always used as a matter of course. Frankly, I'm gobsmacked that anyone would think that using the -ise form is a sign of ignorance (or lack of erudition,... See more
I'm amazed by the number of posters blaming Microsoft for the resurgence of the -ise form and claiming that all us Brits happily used -ize before then. Sorry, but it's simply not true! I learned to write in the early 1970s - well before the era of home computing, let alone the dominance of Microsoft - and was taught the -ise form, which I have always used as a matter of course. Frankly, I'm gobsmacked that anyone would think that using the -ise form is a sign of ignorance (or lack of erudition, if you prefer). Even if you do think I'm ignorant, blame my teachers at various schools in the South of England from the early 70s to mid 80s, but don't blame Microsoft! Whatever the reasons for the variation, it predates Microsoft by a number of decades at least.

It's only since becoming a translator that I've even considered using the -ize form, simply because it is acceptable in all English language variants that I'm aware of. As yet, I haven't been able to bring myself to use it in GB English, it looks wrong and ugly and out of place. It is something I'm reviewing - although not because the -ise form is a sign of ignorance!

[Edited at 2008-08-25 12:45]
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Robert Tucker (X)
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Erudition Aug 25, 2008

I can distinctly remember our music teacher at school (a county grammar – in Oxfordshire (!) – which later became a comprehensive) in the mid-1960's telling us when dictating something that one spelling was used by us in Britain and the other in the USA. I remember most/many of us thought that it was the opposite to what one would expect – the -ise looking and feeling much more modern and in the vanguard than the -ize.

I must have spent the rest of my school life and at least
... See more
I can distinctly remember our music teacher at school (a county grammar – in Oxfordshire (!) – which later became a comprehensive) in the mid-1960's telling us when dictating something that one spelling was used by us in Britain and the other in the USA. I remember most/many of us thought that it was the opposite to what one would expect – the -ise looking and feeling much more modern and in the vanguard than the -ize.

I must have spent the rest of my school life and at least the beginning of student life vacillating between the two, sometimes thinking the -ise looked more modern, sometimes thinking that an "s" in my writing looked rather scruffy while the "z" with its tail looked more stylish – but then which do you use if your pen is running out of ink?

It was not until 1972/3 that I bought a copy of the Concise Oxford Dictionary and took note that it preferred the -ize spelling with its Greek derivation that I tended to that spelling and only really rigorously when I started tending more to language work than scientific work.

Clearly it is a lack of education that people do not realize that the -ize spelling is acceptable if not preferable in UK English – is it really necessary to have gone to school where there is a classics teacher with Ancient Greek to be able to understand this spelling matter?

The OUP still seems to be sticking to -ize forms – at least, I read two of the "Very Short Introduction" series recently and they both used -ize spellings consistently.

Anyway I like z's, they look much more capable of standing up on their own than round-bottomed s's!

Incidentally, I installed the Australian English spellchecker in OpenOffice and found that it, contrary to what I thought would be the case having read some of the comments by the person compiling it, like the UK English spellchecker, accepts both -ise and -ize spellings.

[Edited at 2008-08-25 14:26]
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Marc P (X)
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UK translators: do you use -ize or -ise? Aug 25, 2008

Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:

I'm amazed by the number of posters blaming Microsoft for the resurgence of the -ise form and claiming that all us Brits happily used -ize before then.


I don't think that's the point, Marie-Hélène. It isn't that, pre-Microsoft, everyone in the UK used -ize; it's that pre-Microsoft, -ize was also regarded as correct, in addition to -ise. With the arrival of the MS spelling checker, the -ize suffix was declared wrong, and millions of people simply bowed to Microsoft's edict.

Marc


 
Marie-Hélène Hayles
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OK, I take your point... Aug 25, 2008

Marc P wrote:

Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:

I'm amazed by the number of posters blaming Microsoft for the resurgence of the -ise form and claiming that all us Brits happily used -ize before then.


I don't think that's the point, Marie-Hélène. It isn't that, pre-Microsoft, everyone in the UK used -ize; it's that pre-Microsoft, -ize was also regarded as correct, in addition to -ise. With the arrival of the MS spelling checker, the -ize suffix was declared wrong, and millions of people simply bowed to Microsoft's edict.

Marc


However, there's a huge difference between asserting, as Robert Tucker does, that


Clearly it is a lack of education that people do not realize that the -ize spelling is acceptable if not preferable in UK English – is it really necessary to have gone to school where there is a classics teacher with Ancient Greek to be able to understand this spelling matter?


and saying as he did earlier:


I do think I tend to feel that non-use of the -ize ending tends to show lack of erudition on the part of the writer (or at least on the part of the editor/reviser/proofreader).


It may be ignorance not to know that -ize is acceptable, but it seems unreasonable to assume that all those who prefer -ise do so because they are uneducated.



[Edited at 2008-08-25 16:13]


 
B D Finch
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Flats and estate-agent-speak Aug 25, 2008

Tom in London wrote:

I hate "apartment". In British English it's still "flat" although (real) (or false) estate-agent-speak now seems to have inculcated many Brits (British people) to adopt the American "apartment".

I would never invite a friend to my London "apartment". They'd think I had become vulgar. They might fear that I had adopted estuary English (try explaining what that is in American English).


Yes! I too hate the pretentiousness (définition : pretentious adj 1 making claim to distinction or importance, esp. undeservedly) of calling flats appartments. However, apartments are not just US En. Those whose pretensions have some foundation might live in "grace and favour apartments". These might be spread over more than one floor, but would certainly not be in the US.

Personally I lived in a flat and felt like vandalISING the notices giving the numbers of the "apartments" on each floor of the building in which my mother lived. I had to advISE the supervISor that I did not recognISE this description and she realISED that the block really didn't, in spite of the estate agent's claims, comprISE or comprIZE OF exclusive apartments, but was just a block of flats.




 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
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er... Aug 25, 2008

it isn't "comprise of". Just "comprise".

Otherwise, I completely sympathise.


 
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