| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Untranslatability Thread poster: Unakit
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| On schadenfreude | Oct 31, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
As far as I am concerned, zeitgeist and schadenfreude are "English" words. ..(....) it's in the OED and everything ! I think one must take into account what a dictionary's editorial policy is. A rare word can still make it into a dictionary.
I was being facetious. Admittedly the only clue was "...and everything!" and if you are not used to the implications of ending a sentence with those two words in everyday UK speech, that may have passed you by. Apols. I treat dictionaries with some caution, they are inevitably a little out of date.
One method of testing how well an untranslatable word has been accepted or assimilated into the new culture is to check how often the word is used without definition.
Absolutely. I use google all the time to check on frequency of usage.
Out of the top 10 hits on a Google search on bbc.co.uk for "schadenfreude", only 1 result uses the word without defining it. Most sites use the word with some kind of explanation added to its meaning. Count the usages with no explanation added.
Ah, it's good to see the shambles that is today's BBC still gets used as a benchmark
Sadly, IMHO, it is a website that strives to be all things to all men. As a result, it tends to keep things simple.
And as I said, there will be many English people who have never heard the word.
Try your experiment on a couple of broadsheet newspapers, guardian.co.uk and independent.co.uk., aimed at, shall we say, a better-educated readership than the BBC.
I just clicked a few links at random, and found it not defined at all in the Guardian and only once in the Independent. And used an awful lot in sporting contexts, oddly enough.
[Edited at 2008-10-31 00:30]
| | | | Nicole Schnell 
United States
Local time: 05:48
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Here is (again) what Unakit asked for originally: | Oct 31, 2008 |
Unakit wrote:
Obviously all can be described in few words or sentences. However, lots of than do not have an equivalent.
Apparently, paraphrases as offered in dictionaries are not what Unakit asked for.
So, indeed, I was offering a palette of words that can not be translated by a single word, nothing else.
Tiny addendum:
I probably should have written:
"I'm a native speaker" instead of "I'm German". Has nothing to do with nationalism.
[Edited at 2008-10-31 01:17]
| | | | | So, then, what is "translating" a word?? | Oct 31, 2008 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
So, indeed, I was offering a palette of words that can not be translated by a single word, nothing else.
Well, I was impressed by your efforts anyway.
But I think your approach was reasonable.
There surely is a line, somewhere between "spirit of the age" and "malicious pleasure in others' misfortune" perhaps, where one is, indeed, no longer translating but describing. Since within a short paragraph, say, anything can be "translated".
But one word is often not enough.
But maybe that is a different discussion, altho perhaps the original poster could discuss the point...
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 14:48
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Response mainly to Nicole (and more tips for Unakit) | Oct 31, 2008 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: Here is (again) what Unakit asked for originally: Obviously all can be described in few words or sentences. However, lots of than do not have an equivalent. Apparently, paraphrases as offered in dictionaries are not what Unakit asked for.
I had interpreted Unakit's query slightly differently. If I can just add that sentence that you had deleted from the quote:
I want to prove that there are untranslatable words. Obviously all can be describe in few words or sentences. However, lots of than do not have an equivalent, e.g...
So Unakit wants to prove that there are untranslatable words. Simply mentioning a list of them will not prove his case. Even if a German said so.
A little clarification: I don't use techniques, sources or back translations. I am simply: a German.
And I respect that (you being a native speaker of German, that is). But saying "a German told me this, and she was very sure of herself" isn't going to get Unakit any marks.
You yourself certainly do use backtranslation, though (in this very forum you did).
Rechthaberei and Selbstgerechtigkeit are two very different concepts, BTW.
I do not agree or disagree, but I think your statement shows what difficult task Unakit has before him.
If his professor were an amateur linguist, he might have gotten away with using your statement as proof of untranslability, but the fact is that words can be translated back and forth, back and forth, each time changing in meaning. It is possible to have a German word X, translated into English as word Y, and then to translate word Y into German word Z, and have two words X and Z in German that have nothing to do with each other.
Here, I'll do it in my own two languages: klawerstel -> keyboard -> toetsbord -> test plate. Klawerstel (those black and white things on a piano) and toetsbord (the thing next to your mouse) has nothing to do with each other, and keyboard and test plate has nothing to do with each other either, but the translations given above are all legitimate.
But...
If Unakit is willing to give social engineering a try (that which hackers call social engineering), he can actually use this argument (which refutes one of the techniques to prove untranslatability) to strengthen his argument for untranslatability. This particular ploy works as follows:
* First, introduce a weak argument for untranslatability (but don't say it's weak).
* Then, refute the weak argument with an argument against untranslatability.
* Then, show how the weak argument is weak, and show how the argument can be strong.
* Then, show how the refutation only refutes the argument if it is weak.
* And then (here's the killer), do not write the next logical step in your dissertation, but rather let the professor come to that conclusion himself, in his mind. The conclusion being that the refutation will fail to refute the argument if it is strong, and that since the refutation fails, it is invalid, and that since the refutation is invalid, the strong argument is valid. This is false logic, of course, but if you set the trap right, you might get away with it.
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I was being facetious. Admittedly the only clue was "...and everything!" and if you are not used to the implications of ending a sentence with those two words in everyday UK speech, that may have passed you by. Apols.
No probs. BTW, I had interpreted the "...and everything" as lending not irony but hyperbolic value to your sentence. But I'm not going to pull the non-native card this time
| | | | Susan Welsh
United States
Local time: 08:48
Russian to English
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| Federal Diet? | Oct 31, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Bundestag: why not Federal Diet?
An American reading this would probably conclude that it is something for fat Congressmen.
(PS - Nice new Samuel Murray photo! Now we learn that Samuel is not an overgrown teenager, but a distinguished South African gentleman! It's good to update these photos once in awhile.)
Otherwise, how about:
Gleichschaltung
It's often translated as "leveling," but this is totally bland and not right. I am told by German native speakers that its use today is almost always with reference to the Nazi period, or Nazi-like practices. Another translator came up with what I think is a great translation: "lock-step control." But it's a tough one.
Susan
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 14:48
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Offtopic: lock step control | Oct 31, 2008 |
Susan Welsh wrote:
Another translator came up with what I think is a great translation: "lock-step control."
According to the Wikipedia, lock-step control is indeed the correct translation, if the word is used for machine parts, and not in its political meaning:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichschaltung
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 05:48
English to German
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In memoriam
Samuel Murray wrote:
Simply mentioning a list of them will not prove his case. Even if a German said so.
And I respect that (you being a native speaker of German, that is). But saying "a German told me this, and she was very sure of herself" isn't going to get Unakit any marks.
Hi Samuel,
explaining the terms that I suggested would have created a thread that would be 2 miles long by now, including all references. I don't think that it is my job to help writing a dissertation. If so, let's talk about my rate.
| | | | Unakit
Local time: 13:48
English to Polish
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TOPIC STARTER
I do not want anybody to write my dissertation. You are right Nicole. I can handle it on my own, I suppose .
The only thing is that, it is hard to find words simply because there is no translation book about untranslatable words from German to English. I have found 2 books on Polish - English translation, focusing mainly on difficulties and untranslatability. However, there is no German one, as far as I know. That is wa... See more I do not want anybody to write my dissertation. You are right Nicole. I can handle it on my own, I suppose.
The only thing is that, it is hard to find words simply because there is no translation book about untranslatable words from German to English. I have found 2 books on Polish - English translation, focusing mainly on difficulties and untranslatability. However, there is no German one, as far as I know. That is way, I have asked for help.
I appreciate all the posts with words. Describing them and suggesting the way to overcome the problem of untranslatability is my worry.
I only asked once Nicole to explain the word "Katzenjammer" only because I do not trust wikipedia. that is it.
Thank you once more for all posts.
I hope you will find another ones. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | amorphous concept | Oct 31, 2008 |
When you really get down to it, half the words of any random language are "untranslatable" to a any random other one - or none are untranslatable, depending on how you look at it.
Pretty much anything that has strong cultural/historical element will have a lot of shades of meaning, connotations etc. that makes it impossible to translate the word "fully" in one or two words. "Table" probably has a precise translation in most or all European languages that is the right translation for the w... See more When you really get down to it, half the words of any random language are "untranslatable" to a any random other one - or none are untranslatable, depending on how you look at it.
Pretty much anything that has strong cultural/historical element will have a lot of shades of meaning, connotations etc. that makes it impossible to translate the word "fully" in one or two words. "Table" probably has a precise translation in most or all European languages that is the right translation for the word in every sentence it may occur in, but even "blue" does not.
If you want to fill your dissertation with untranslatable words, you surely can. More interesting would be, perhaps, to try and grasp what makes a word really untranslatable - that is, when the connotations and shades of meaning become so important that you can say the word loses something indispensable in translation.
By the way, I am surprised English doesn't have a word for schadenfreude. Hungarian does, one-on-one correspondence there. My Hu-En dictionary lists "malice" as the English equivalent - and also, "schadenfraude" You can feel they were struggling on that one... ▲ Collapse
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Untranslatibilty has been talked about for a long time, yet, according to Susan Bassnette, what have we been doing all the time if there is untranslatability? This is a relative term. I advice that you do your paper about untranslatability from the perspective of deconstructionism. Besides, since you wanna write something about German, and one of the leading characters in deconstructionim, Walter Benjamin, is a German. Maybe it'll be easier for you to finish your paper.
Good luck!
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 14:48
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| | Jingoistic national anthems | Nov 1, 2008 |
Robin Salmon wrote:
Many inhabitants, mainly migrants, admittedly, refuse to sing the Marseillaise, written in 1871 and used as motivation for the Napoleonic campaigns
Sorry - that should have been 1792 (an improved version was written in 1871).
Hello Robin, I'm glad you corrected the date of the Marseillaise (I was bossily about to do so) - originally called The Battle Hymn of the Rhine Army, I believe.
Stirring as it is, it is indeed bloody, with its references to slitting the throats of children and furrows running with foreign blood, but do you know the second verse of the British national anthem? It's never sung these days, for reasons one can well understand - here it is:
Oh, our Lord God, arise,
Scatter our enemies
And make them fall.
Confound their politics, frustrate their knavish tricks
On Thee our hopes we fix.
God, save us all.
Great 18th century stuff !
In addition to "Oh, say, can you see by the dawn's early light?", the Americans have an alternative national anthem sung to the same tune as God Save the Queen, which starts: "My country, 'tis of thee".
When one of my American nephews was about 5 or 6 years old, he thought there was a country called "Tisofthee".
Best wishes,
Jenny
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 14:48
German to English
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| Einspruch, euer Ehren | Nov 1, 2008 |
Unakit wrote:
The only thing is that, it is hard to find words simply because there is no translation book about untranslatable words from German to English. I have found 2 books on Polish - English translation, focusing mainly on difficulties and untranslatability. However, there is no German one, as far as I know.
In the professional context, the issue is moot, since one does not translate "words". Translation is about the transfer of a message from one code to another, and has to be seen in the context of the whole message and the whole code. Whether certain individual words in one language have direct equivalents in another is therefore irrelevant in a professional context. Conversely, in an academic context, the answer to the question of which words are untranslatable is "all of them".
I also have to disagree about there being no literature in German on this subject. There may not be a convenient "German-English dictionary of untranslatable words". But much of the early work in translation theory was done by Germans. Thinkers such as Friederich Schleiermacher and Wilhelm von Humboldt made major contributions. Schleiermacher observed for example that a word in one language does not have a single meaning, but a field of meanings, and that this field typically overlaps, but is not entirely congruent with, the nearest equivalent word in another language.
"Schadenfreude" is as good an example as any. The word has indeed been adopted into English, but it has a different register in English to that in German, so even if their semantic content is the same in the two languages, their usage is not congruent. Leaving the adoption of the German word in English aside, though, English also has "gloating", which is similar in meaning. It can be argued that "gloating" does not cover quite the same semantic range as "Schadenfreude", but if this is the case, it follows that the reverse must be true, since there is no obvious, one-to-one German "translation" of "gloating" - other than "Schadenfreude". (I am happy to be corrected.)
I see that FarkasAndras has said the same thing - appropriately, using different words. My point is that this is nothing new: Schleiermacher died almost two centuries ago; and that theoretical issues such as this are both relevant and potentially beneficial to the practice of translation, provided a certain degree of academic rigour is assured (and that means going far beyond merely compiling a list of words), and sufficient practical experience can be called upon to effect the transfer to what some of us call the rockface. Sadly, many practitioners lack the former, many theorists the latter.
Marc
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