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Repetitive Words vs Wordcount Charge
Thread poster: xxxVerse 5B
xxxVerse 5B
Local time: 02:56
English to Serbian
+ ...
Nov 14, 2008

Hello,

I was reviewing the ideas of repetitive words suggested by some CAT Tool people.

They say, when a word, or a block of words repeat, the macros will identify them as repeating words, and therefore these words must not be paid for ! Wow, what a lovely semi-expert linguistic analysis. I am impressed indeed.

What about the fact that the same word will get a whole new meaning in a new context, at a new place in the document, which will inevitably involve translator's energy, expertise and time to figure out the best matching word? and it will still not be paid for? I will exclude proper names here, because they always have the same meaning, regardless of the context ( names of people, streets, cities, countries etc). But any other word has a potential of changing the meaning either in nuances, or completely, especially when interwoven in a phrase and/or idiom.

I would like to hear your opinion about this occurrence and how it happened that non-linguistic people are deciding for us what words are worth paying for ?


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Óscar Delgado Gosálvez  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 20:56
Member (2007)
English to Spanish
+ ...
No problem, but if they are not paid, remove them Nov 14, 2008

An argentinian or brazilian colleague told once a very funny anecdote in a forum.
Too bad I don't remember where I saw it. I would love to quote it here literally.

The story was more or less that a client wanted a reduction, because there were so many repetitive words. The translator replied that he usually charged for every word he wrote, but he would be very happy to oblige removing all instances of repetitive "ins" "tos" "ofs" "its" "hes" "shes" "ands" "whichs" or "thats" that were so abundant in the text and not to charge them.

Apparently the client became speechless and that was the end of the demand, and if I remember the anecdote well, the end of the business relatonship as well



[Edited at 2008-11-14 05:17 GMT]


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 02:56
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
How large is your chunk of meaning? Nov 14, 2008

Verse 5B wrote:
They say, when a word, or a block of words repeat, the macros will identify them as repeating words, and therefore these words must not be paid for ! What about the fact that the same word will get a whole new meaning in a new context, at a new place in the document, which will inevitably involve translator's energy, expertise and time to figure out the best matching word?


Certainly, but let me put the question to you: what is likely the smallest chunk of text in which all the words used will have the same meaning regardless of where that chunk of text occurs? Would you say a paragraph is the smallest? A sentence, perhaps? A pair of sentences? A sentence with at least one sentence and/or a paragraph break on either side?

I don't know of any CAT tool people who would advocate discounts based on the repetition of single words within a sentence, though. Who are these people you are referring to?

I would like to hear your opinion about this occurrence and how it happened that non-linguistic people are deciding for us what words are worth paying for ?


So... these CAT tool people you're talking about, are non-linguists? Who are they, pray tell?


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Translation-Pro  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:56
Member (2007)
English to German
+ ...
Interesting threads Nov 14, 2008

Hi,

Maybe you'll find these threads interesting:

http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/118504-is_it_normal_for_agencies_to_pay_by_the_reduced_source_word-page2.html

http://www.proz.com/forum/german/116584-preise_für_wiederholungen_bei_trados.html#955598

Best

Christa


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Burrell  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:56
Member (2004)
English to Latvian
+ ...
Sometimes even place names change Nov 14, 2008

In a language like Latvian most of the words change their endings depending on their position in regards to other words, so, for example, in case of 'to London' and 'from London' word 'London' would be written differently in Latvian, the same goes for personal names and many others. This is one of the reasons I never give discounts for anything less than a 100% match when using Trados (well, I actually try to get out of giving any discounts as I cannot remember any of these clients paying for my Trados and the subsequent upgrades but that's another story) as the work involved after you have changes all the endings and swapped word order is usually the same as for the new text.

So what you are describing lacks any sense whatsoever.

Ines


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xxxVerse 5B
Local time: 02:56
English to Serbian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
... Nov 14, 2008

Burrell wrote:

In a language like Latvian most of the words change their endings depending on their position in regards to other words, so, for example, in case of 'to London' and 'from London' word 'London' would be written differently in Latvian, the same goes for personal names and many others.

So what you are describing lacks any sense whatsoever.

Ines


Perhaps you are lacking in sense, because what you described is not referred to the word meaning, but to its FORM. When you add difference case suffixes to a noun, which exists in Serbian as well, you will thus change its form, but not necessarily its meaning.

I was referring to the meaning, as you can read in my intro. I was thinking about the words that maintain the identical form, but change the meaning. That's what macro detects > identical forms, not changed forms, from what I know.




[Edited at 2008-11-14 12:02 GMT]


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Philippe Etienne  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 02:56
Member
English to French
Repetitions are accounted for at sentence level Nov 14, 2008

in CAT tools I know of. There might be some features such as fragment matching, but I am not aware of any agencies taking them into account in pricing.
In other words, when a sentence is repeated, some outsourcers argue that repeated sentences shouldn't be paid since they are spat back into the text with a mouse click.
I have never come across any outsourcer not paying for repeated words as such. As you mentioned, words taken out of context can have many meanings, and nobody in their right minds would accept be paid only for distinct words in a text.

Conversely, a whole sentence taken out of context has far fewer meanings. CAT tools don't work with words, but sentences or even whole paragraphs (Context matches in SDL trados).

CAT tools can undoubdtedly save time with texts containing many repeated sentences. Whether you are prepared to split the time saved (therefore the additional revenue per hour you make) between your pocket and the outsourcer's is exclusively a business decision.
I myself decided to be paid less for repeated sentences (when I am asked), because if I didn't, my turnover would likely be lower than it is. So at the end of *my* day, I earn more (better productivity with CAT tools and additional business from outsourcers who otherwise would not have me as their supplier), while being paid less for repeated sentences. For others, CAT tools are only a hindrance and lower their turnover.

But beyond CAT tools or not CAT tools, it is a decent rate in the first place that makes a difference in earnings. And a busy schedule day-in day-out.

Enjoy your weekend,
Philippe


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xxxVerse 5B
Local time: 02:56
English to Serbian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
... Nov 14, 2008

Philippe Etienne wrote:

in CAT tools I know of. There might be some features such as fragment matching, but I am not aware of any agencies taking them into account in pricing.
In other words, when a sentence is repeated, some outsourcers argue that repeated sentences shouldn't be paid since they are spat back into the text with a mouse click.
I have never come across any outsourcer not paying for repeated words as such. As you mentioned, words taken out of context can have many meanings, and nobody in their right minds would accept be paid only for distinct words in a text.

Conversely, a whole sentence taken out of context has far fewer meanings. CAT tools don't work with words, but sentences or even whole paragraphs (Context matches in SDL trados).

CAT tools can undoubdtedly save time with texts containing many repeated sentences. Whether you are prepared to split the time saved (therefore the additional revenue per hour you make) between your pocket and the outsourcer's is exclusively a business decision.
I myself decided to be paid less for repeated sentences (when I am asked), because if I didn't, my turnover would likely be lower than it is. So at the end of *my* day, I earn more (better productivity with CAT tools and additional business from outsourcers who otherwise would not have me as their supplier), while being paid less for repeated sentences. For others, CAT tools are only a hindrance and lower their turnover.

But beyond CAT tools or not CAT tools, it is a decent rate in the first place that makes a difference in earnings. And a busy schedule day-in day-out.

Enjoy your weekend,
Philippe


Thanks, Philippe.

Your view is supported with plenty of solid factual arguments. And I agree with everything you said.



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