| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Can translation be taught? Thread poster: Raf Uzar
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Steven Capsuto 
United States
Local time: 17:12
Member (2004)
Spanish to English
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| Different people think in different ways | Apr 6, 2009 |
I definitely think verbally: there's a clear narrative in words running through my head at any given moment. Most of the time it's in English. Sometimes it's in Spanish. If I'm in Spain for any length of time, the balance shifts and I think primarily in Spanish and occasionally in English.
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Steven Capsuto wrote:
The most effective translation courses I had were ones in which we were given translation assignments to do at home, and then went through them in class sentence by sentence, discussing which students' versions were within the realm of acceptability and which were not, and why.
Exactly. I entirely agree. The most useful method. Specially if you have to cope with a specific translation "in the wild" with no instructions, and the next day you feel like ripping your translation to pieces instead of handing it over to the instructor AFTER you have been taught the premises and best practices of translating such materials.
| | | | Angela Dickson (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:12
French to English
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Anne Kjaer Iversen wrote:
I assume one of the key reasons why the discussion about whether translation can be taught or if it is an inborn gift keeps popping up every now and then has to do with Noam Chromsky’s theory that language and the human ability to develop language is a hereditary feature that differs from person to person with roots in a build-in language mechanism.
I'm sorry I am only addressing one small point of your very interesting post, Anne, but I have to disagree with the above. The language faculty, as described by Chomsky and others, relates to the ability that all normal human beings have to pick up one or more languages at a very young age. These are what we refer to as native language(s).
Second (or further, in the case of true bilingualism) language acquisition is a very different process. The theories behind these acquisition processes, while interesting in their own right, have little or nothing to say about whether a given individual will have any facility for translation. The skills involved in translation go above and beyond what is required to learn a language (indeed, the language learning process must already have reached a late stage in order for translation proper to even be possible).
I think some people do have a natural facility or instinct for mediating between two or more languages that they know well. Others may know several languages well but keep them separate and have little interest in transferring meaning between them. The former type of person will be drawn to translation/interpreting education, and the latter will not.
I do think that people with the right aptitude can be taught to translate better, and there are various ways in which this can be achieved (a lot of practice being one; directed practice is more efficient than solo practice, in my opinion).
[Edited at 2009-04-06 09:43 GMT]
| | | | Angela Dickson (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:12
French to English
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| Mother tongue misunderstandings | Apr 6, 2009 |
Williamson wrote:
Disagree. Depends on the surroundings and situation. My mother's tongue was a native Flemish dialect with a limited vocabulary which forces to use the restricted code. I would not be able to function in the world if I used that language as a means of thought. When discussing in English or French, I simply think in my native language, but adapt to the surroundings and the people.[Modifié le 2009-04-05 16:02 GMT]
The beauty of recent linguistic theory is that is explains how a child, when exposed to a restricted code via one of its parents, can nevertheless grow up speaking a full and unrestricted language.
"Mother tongue" is used as a shorthand for "language one is exposed to when young" (and as a synonym of "native language") and will usually include the language of the speech community around the child. Input from this community, as well as the parents, is important in language acquisition.
I should be providing citations for all of this but I don't have time at present...
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 23:12
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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| Anything can be learned | Apr 6, 2009 |
Everything can be learned. It does not necessarily take talent, but it does necessarily take motivation, dedication and hard+consistent work, along with a good teacher and an efficient teaching methodology / curriculum.
It's learned over a long period of time ; it's not something you can master overnight.
Note : Here, I use the verb " learn" in the widest possible sense : language acquisition, natural logic, linguistics,theory, practice, general intellectual curiosity,... See more Everything can be learned. It does not necessarily take talent, but it does necessarily take motivation, dedication and hard+consistent work, along with a good teacher and an efficient teaching methodology / curriculum.
It's learned over a long period of time ; it's not something you can master overnight.
Note : Here, I use the verb " learn" in the widest possible sense : language acquisition, natural logic, linguistics,theory, practice, general intellectual curiosity, etc.
To illustrate : Do you believe that sportsmen or artists who had top achievements ( e.g. gold medal winners) managed it thanks to their inborn gift or because of the intense every-day practice with a program created and supervised by the top coaches/mentors educated and experienced in the field ?
[Edited at 2009-04-06 10:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Eric Hahn (X)
France
Local time: 23:12
French to German
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Translation has to be learned, that's why it can be taught. BTW, you can't learn a foreign language without translating it.
Because it is known that all humans are born with the inherent faculty to learn _each and every_ human language, linguists like Noam Chomsky supposed the existence of some universal language and of rules for it's transformation or translation into specific languages.
Conclusion: There might be only one language, but with different rules ...
... See more Translation has to be learned, that's why it can be taught. BTW, you can't learn a foreign language without translating it.
Because it is known that all humans are born with the inherent faculty to learn _each and every_ human language, linguists like Noam Chomsky supposed the existence of some universal language and of rules for it's transformation or translation into specific languages.
Conclusion: There might be only one language, but with different rules ...
[Edited at 2009-04-06 16:44 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 23:12
Italian to English
In memoriam | Teachers and categories of the mind | Apr 6, 2009 |
Eric Hahn wrote:
Translation has to be learned, that's why it can be taught.
Well said, Eric. A good - by which I mean competent and above all enthusiastic - teacher will bring out the best in students of translation, or indeed of any other subject
BTW, you can't learn a foreign language without translating it.
Very true again. And the more languages you study, the more you become aware of grammatical concepts and categories of the mind that your own language may not have, or perhaps handle in a completely different way.
Even if you only translate professionally from one language, competence in others can extend the options available to you as you mentally reformulate the notions in your source texts.
Giles
| | | | Angela Dickson (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:12
French to English
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Giles Watson wrote: Eric Hahn wrote:
BTW, you can't learn a foreign language without translating it.
Very true again. And the more languages you study, the more you become aware of grammatical concepts and categories of the mind that your own language may not have, or perhaps handle in a completely different way.
I partly agree with Eric - when learning a foreign language you do translate all the time (as an exercise and as a natural part of the process), as you rely heavily on your native language as a 'frame' for what you are learning. However, once one has achieved high-level competence in the foreign language, translation does not necessarily continue, especially if one lives in the foreign-language culture with limited contact with one's native language. For me, this explains why there exists a group of people who know several languages intimately and yet have no ability to translate.
To put it another way: translation is not a skill that arises automatically if one has a good enough grasp of two or more languages. It is an ancillary skill that must be trained separately.
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Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 23:12
Italian to English
In memoriam | Who said it was "automatic"? | Apr 6, 2009 |
Angela Dickson wrote:
To put it another way: translation is not a skill that arises automatically if one has a good enough grasp of two or more languages. It is an ancillary skill that must be trained separately.
I agree wholeheartedly. A knowledge of several languages is something a translator can draw on but there is nothing "automatic" about the process.
Actually, one of the best ways of acquiring translation skills is to study classical languages by the old "grammar and translation" method, although it requires time, patience and luck with your teachers. On the way, you might even, like I.A. Richards (himself a translator of Homer and Plato), pick up a knowledge of ancient rhetoric that will stand you in good stead when you come to explore modern theories of literature, including translation.
Giles
| | | | | It's more like a love affair | Apr 7, 2009 |
I believe translation can be taught (I'd rather say learnt) providing the sudent has a passion for it, but it does require constant work and enjoying every minute of it.
That passion is certainly a gift...
| | | | Raf Uzar
Poland
Local time: 23:12
Polish to English
TOPIC STARTER | So... can translation be taught? | Apr 13, 2009 |
My goodness, this IS a tough cookie. It seems we have a whole spectrum of ideas:
1) Translation can certainly NOT be taught;
2) Everything (including translation) can be taught; and
3) Translation requires a certain level of inborn skill but it can be polished and improved.
I wonder which view prevails amongst us, translators?
| | | | | not at all ! oO | Apr 14, 2009 |
hi !
translation and math don't sound alike , you've not to be dependent on a teacher to acquire the translation's skill , we likely would sometimes need some help to go on improving our knacks . translation is an art , and arts are not supposed to be taught . we only reach our aim and get high-heeled by applyin , sure , at first there's someone to lead you ! but that wouldn't get any longer !
remember : practice makes perfect ! ... See more hi !
translation and math don't sound alike , you've not to be dependent on a teacher to acquire the translation's skill , we likely would sometimes need some help to go on improving our knacks . translation is an art , and arts are not supposed to be taught . we only reach our aim and get high-heeled by applyin , sure , at first there's someone to lead you ! but that wouldn't get any longer !
remember : practice makes perfect !
that's just the way it is , isn't it ? . ▲ Collapse
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| no translation necessary | Apr 15, 2009 |
Eric Hahn wrote:
Translation has to be learned, that's why it can be taught. BTW, you can't learn a foreign language without translating it.
A personal experience to contradict this statement:
I had nine years English in high school (German Gymnasium). It was taught completely monolingual, no German spoken at all, even the word lists were only in English (new vocabulary paired with an English explanation and examples).
Then I went to college to study English. We also had to take translation courses, in which I did extremely poorly in the beginning. It took me a long time to figure out why, as I was otherwise pretty fluent in English.
I realized that both languages, my native German and English, existed in their own respective area inside my brain. Since I learned English in an English only environment, there were no connecting synapses between these two areas. Therefore, I did not translate English words and sentences into German at all! I knew exactly what specific words mean and could explain and circumscribe them, but I didn't really know the German corresponding terms without thinking consciously about it for a while or, more often than not, looking it up in the dictionary. It was actually a kind of weird, yet interesting feeling when I realized that.
After that, I made conscious efforts to link the two languages by making bilingual lists of idiomatic expressions and translating English more consciously while reading or speaking it. My translation skills improved tremendously through those efforts.
As for the question can translation be taught:
To a certain extent, yes, as there are certain techniques that can be practiced and language skills that can be honed under the guidance of a teacher.
But can you teach somebody to be a good or even great translator? I don't think so. A lot of it has to do with past experiences as mentioned before, time spent with languages etc. and also ongoing experience. I'm sure most of us have experienced that our skills have improved from when we started out. Practice makes perfect.
I believe that translation can be learned, but not completely be taught.
No class or course can combine all the experiences and times of practice etc. necessary to start with a linguistically talented person and produce a good translator at the end of the course.
| | | | Raf Uzar
Poland
Local time: 23:12
Polish to English
TOPIC STARTER | Synapses & Translation | Apr 15, 2009 |
Heike,
I think the points you made are extremely important. It shows two things:
1) certain linguistic skills are learnt and then hard-wired into the brain;
2) translation is also learnt and then hard-wires it into the brain.
If this is the case then we can talk of translation being a learnt skill which bears all the marks of being in-born.
| | | | | anybody translates - but not everybody is, will or can become a <professional> translator | Apr 17, 2009 |
A child that learns some 'unacceptable' words in the kindergarten, is subsequently taught at home that it is not wished to use these words there and applies this advice - starting to speak one 'language' with its buddies and another 'language' with adults has acquired 'translation'.
Later on, that child will learn that it has to use different wordings in school and at home, with authorities, in political and ideological 'mined' areas etc, also in making distinctions between dialects... See more A child that learns some 'unacceptable' words in the kindergarten, is subsequently taught at home that it is not wished to use these words there and applies this advice - starting to speak one 'language' with its buddies and another 'language' with adults has acquired 'translation'.
Later on, that child will learn that it has to use different wordings in school and at home, with authorities, in political and ideological 'mined' areas etc, also in making distinctions between dialects and standard language etc.
Even in choosing carefully the 'right' term or expression in communication with others, something that might be called the 'diplomacy' of common life, is a process of translation.
Translation in essence is a purpose oriented substitution of words by other words.
Doing this between different languages is - as has been stated here already, the basis of learning a foreign language in the 'normal' way. - What Heike described is the special case, though nowadays quite frequent, of growing up in two or even more languages. That clearly is different from learning a 'foreign' language. - The learning of a 'foreign' language means precisely to link it to or to hook it onto one's own 'native' language, word by word, structure by structure, idiom by idiom, concept by concept- in other words it is 'learning to translate' from the very first moment and all through the normally never ending process.
In this sense, everyone that has learned - as distinct from 'naturally acquired' - a foreign language, is a translator from, rarely into, that foreign language - to the extent of his knowledge.
The basic ability of translation is something rather anybody has. - The ultimate criterion for good translation - as opposite to interpreting - is the ***competence in the target language***.
No one entering a translation school should have the idea that he will have to learn translating there. But translation schools provide the tools to become - more easily and more directly - a 'professional' translator. ▲ Collapse
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