A responsibility as a translator of games (English/Japanese)
Mami Yamaguchi Japan Member (2008) English to Japanese + ...
mince words
Jun 15, 2011
Hi! Yumico-san
I would like to participate in this topic.
I strongly agree with yumico-san.
In regards to the effects of violent video game on the mental health of children and adolescents, there seem to be many reports show a certain correlation exists between actual violent acts and violent video game exposure. And many educationists, health workers,neuroscientists,etc. have attested that violent video game exposure increases aggressive thoughts, angry feelings, physiological arousal, aggressive behaviors, and decreases helpful behaviors. They have approached this theme using their own investigative approaches since a couple of decades before the public started to pick up this topic. We, as linguists who must treat words carefully and skillfully mustn’t ignore this scientific attestation, I think. As Krzysztof Łesyk says, today's youth use [死ね」 [殺す」 easily in their daily conversation. For this reason, I'd like to select ‘appropriate words for children, I agree to Kay's opinion, you can choose from a wealth of expressions other than just "kill". Even if you choose 「やっつけろ」instead of 「殺す」,the game would successfully satisfy children. Children are in a stage of cognitive growth while learning the concept of right and wrong, so I hope they are not exposed to violence virtual world(or words). Anyway, I would like to put work into reader(or watcher)-friendly translation, arranging it depending on the situation.. This is my hope.
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Yumico Tanaka Australia Local time: 10:13 Member (2008) English to Japanese + ...
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Thank you for your opinion
Jun 15, 2011
Hi mami-san,
Yes I think we have social responsibility to Japanese society. Even though I haven't lived there for the past 25 years continuously, I am concerned for my home country.
If I refuse a job like that and let someone else do the work and if the translator does exactly what I fear s/he does, then I share the blame for the influence caused by the choices made there.
As a translator, we are responsible to convery what the author 1) wrote or 2) intended to convey ... which do you think is the answer?
Clearly the answer is 2).
Then how to better convey the intended content is up to the translator who also can discuss those small connotation matters with the client (via agent) that's what I do.
Thanks for your participation!
I would like to close the discussion now. (can I do it?)
Thank you for everyone who participated.
Mami Yamaguchi wrote:
Hi! Yumico-san
I would like to participate in this topic.
I strongly agree with yumico-san.
In regards to the effects of violent video game on the mental health of children and adolescents, there seem to be many reports show a certain correlation exists between actual violent acts and violent video game exposure. And many educationists, health workers,neuroscientists,etc. have attested that violent video game exposure increases aggressive thoughts, angry feelings, physiological arousal, aggressive behaviors, and decreases helpful behaviors. They have approached this theme using their own investigative approaches since a couple of decades before the public started to pick up this topic. We, as linguists who must treat words carefully and skillfully mustn’t ignore this scientific attestation, I think. As Krzysztof Łesyk says, today's youth use [死ね」 [殺す」 easily in their daily conversation. For this reason, I'd like to select ‘appropriate words for children, I agree to Kay's opinion, you can choose from a wealth of expressions other than just "kill". Even if you choose 「やっつけろ」instead of 「殺す」,the game would successfully satisfy children. Children are in a stage of cognitive growth while learning the concept of right and wrong, so I hope they are not exposed to violence virtual world(or words). Anyway, I would like to put work into reader(or watcher)-friendly translation, arranging it depending on the situation.. This is my hope.
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Yumico Tanaka Australia Local time: 10:13 Member (2008) English to Japanese + ...
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I am glad to hear that!!
Jun 16, 2011
TransAfrique wrote:
I tend to see far more 倒す than 殺す in the games I play.
That's good, so it should be.
The problem is that there are a small number of translators who put words straight from dictipnary.
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Krzysztof Łesyk Japan Local time: 09:13 Japanese to English + ...
A lot of confusion here
Jun 17, 2011
I should really go back to work, but against my better judgment, I will respond, since seeing so many misconceptions in one place is extremely uncomfortable to me almost on physical level.
First and foremost, "video games=entertainment for children" is simplification so grossly inaccurate that I honestly don't even know where to start explaining it. How did we even get from "accurate translation of the word 'kill'" to "children should be protected from game violence"?! Video games are just like any other medium - there are ones meant for children (and I would think they don't include the word "kill" in the first place) and there are ones meant for adults. Translating adult games (or adult literature, or adult movies) in a way that one imagines would protect children from harm is utterly meaningless and tantamount to trying to ban steak because toddlers can't chew it.
Another issue I have is with responsibilities. I did say that in my previous post, but it bears repeating - I believe that as a translator (or interpreter), my only responsibility is to accurately convey the message of its author to the intended recipient. The content of the message is the responsibility of the author of it and only the author. Our responsibility is accuracy and accuracy only (and just to be clear, by accuracy I don't mean literal translation).
Now then, I believe 倒す, やっつける or any other euphemism is NOT an accurate way to translate the English word "kill". Let me give you a quick example: 敵を倒したが、殺さなかった - "I defeated the enemy, but I didn't kill him". やつをやっつけろ！でも殺すな、聞きたいことがあるから。 - "Deal with that guy! Don't kill him though, I want to ask him about something.". Now, can you explain to me what exactly you mean when you say 殺す doesn't mean "kill"? I find it to be a perfectly adequate translation.
Actually, as I write it, it reminds me of a discussion I had a while ago about a lot of Japanese interpreters, especially female ones. I really don't want this to sound discriminatory, but the issue I see with a lot of people I work with is that they try to soften the message to the extreme at all times, ignoring the register that the original speaker used. I have personally witnessed heated business conversations, where the English speaker would launch into an expletive-laden tirade, that magically turned into a polite and soft-spoken refusal after passing through the interpreter. Sometimes it was bordering on the comical - an English "This is bullshit!" would be rendered as "I'm extremely sorry, but I have to disagree."
What I'm trying to say here (in so may words) is that it seems to me you are not trying to translate the message here - you are trying to change and edit it, essentially putting words in the author's mouth. I disagree with this approach and I believe it's wrong - profanity should be translated into profanity, violence into violence and sexuality into sexuality. Anything less is robbing the author of his message, plain and simple.
Finally, protecting children from violent games, that's perfectly fine - just don't let children play violent games! I'm all for that - I think pornography, violent literature or war movies are something children shouldn't come in contact with until they can comprehend all aspects of what they're dealing with, and violent games are no different in this aspect - they are made for adults and only adults should consume them. Trying to soften the message and by doing that distorting the intent of game creators is not the way though.
And now I must return to my share of message-conveying, unfortunately not nearly as interesting as video games.
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Alain Dellepiane Japan Local time: 09:13 Member (2010) English to Italian
Warn the clients
Jun 20, 2011
I think Krzysztof Łesyk spoke words of wisdom.
However, if Yumicho and Mami still want to modify texts on moral grounds, they should also warn their clients about it. After all, this goes beyond what a translator is expected to do.
(Hey, even a straigth query "Did you mean neutralize or murder here?" could solve the issue in a minute!)
[Edited at 2011-06-20 06:12 GMT]
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Alex Farrell Japan Local time: 09:13 Member (2008) Japanese to English
Yes, 倒す
Jun 20, 2011
Yumico, allow me to go back to the conversation's starting point and your initial problem, which was the translation job you were assigned.
Yumico Tanaka wrote:
Fellow translators of English /Japanese,
In my recent work in game instructions, I realized a problem.
The job contained the word "kill" in so many instances all through.
and I hope every translator is aware that what connotations the Japanese word "殺す” has is not the same as with "kill".
And let me also reference TransAfrique's comment.
TransAfrique wrote:
I tend to see far more 倒す than 殺す in the games I play.
That's right, 倒す is the standard term in Japanese games. For example, when you are instructed to kill a bunch of enemies, it will often use this word, which literally means "defeat." If you are translating from English to Japanese, 殺す may be the correct literal translation for "kill" or even "murder," but when working with a game you should be engaged in localization, which means making the translation appropriate for the target market. In that case, you will often find it best to translate "kill" as 倒す when localizing an English game for the Japanese market.
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Yumico Tanaka Australia Local time: 10:13 Member (2008) English to Japanese + ...
TOPIC STARTER
Yes I already agreed on this.
Jun 21, 2011
Alex, Thanks for your post.
Please note that I already agreed with this on June 16th: Copied as below:
I am glad to hear that!! Jun 16
TransAfrique wrote:
I tend to see far more 倒す than 殺す in the games I play.
That's good, so it should be.
The problem is that there are a small number of translators who put words straight from dictipnary.
As you said, the "kill" in this instance should be regarded as "defeat"
But those who get quotes from dictionaries do not give more thought because it is beyond the specified duty as a job, do seem to exist. That's why I posted this question in a forum.
I am glad to find those who see this point.
The action verb "kill" is not "modified" by us translators here, as accused (!?! Sorry Alain, strong word here, but it felt like it!) by Alain.
Of course we should always confirm with client's intentions and communicate well. I say again.
It has been interesting to see how this forum develops.
I think "functional grammar" is the key here. The context to consider involves the "action doer" "sayer of the verb" as well. It is simply called as part of the culture, but languages deeply involve around cultures, so it is important to point out. I wish I had more time to expand on this but I must go now.
If anyone translates "kill" as korosu saying the client did not choose the word "defeat" then the translation will suffer.
Thanks, have a good day.
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Alain Dellepiane Japan Local time: 09:13 Member (2010) English to Italian
Which was the real message?
Jun 22, 2011
I think we have two parallel ideas are at play here.
1) Translating "A" with "C" because it matches the true meaning, the context, the intention of the client and common terminology in that field
2) Translating "A" with "C" as a subjective/moralistic censorship of "B"
If you meant that the "responsability of translator of games" is #1 (and that alone) I couldn't agree more. That's the duty and mission of a translator.
However, your comments on the "work refused on moral grounds" post seem to support #2 and that would be much more controversial.
So, did you really mean #1 or #2?
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Yumico Tanaka Australia Local time: 10:13 Member (2008) English to Japanese + ...
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Thank you for clearing up my idea!
Jun 24, 2011
I am particularily focused on the verb "kill" here. It is an iceberg of many words that have many aspects of functional grammars (as in context) but let me see your point below...
Alain Dellepiane wrote:
I think we have two parallel ideas are at play here.
1) Translating "A" with "C" because it matches the true meaning, the context, the intention of the client and common terminology in that field
>>> Yes, in this case in the game situation, "kill" was better translated as "defeat".
"...true meaning, the context, the intention of the client and common terminology in that field"
that's what conscientiously decent translators would do, I believe.
2) Translating "A" with "C" as a subjective/moralistic censorship of "B"
If you meant that the "responsability of translator of games" is #1 (and that alone) I couldn't agree more. That's the duty and mission of a translator.
>>>Absolutely.
However, your comments on the "work refused on moral grounds" post seem to support #2 and that would be much more controversial.
>>>
This is a personal thought, and I said I would inquire that, by that I meant not as a translator, but personally.
So, did you really mean #1 or #2?
>>>
1)
Thank you!
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Alain Dellepiane Japan Local time: 09:13 Member (2010) English to Italian
Thank you
Jun 28, 2011
Thank you for the quick answer, and sorry for being so inquisitive, but gaming fought a long battle for its freedom of speech and it's great to see it finally recognized!
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Mami Yamaguchi Japan Member (2008) English to Japanese + ...
Please read it correctly
Oct 24, 2011
Hi! Alain.
I should have replied to your message soon though..
>>However, if Yumicho and Mami still want to modify texts
I don't say 'I want to modify texts'.
As I wrote in my previous posting,
you can '((choose from a wealth of expressions)).
I just mention the importance of 'protecting children from violent games'.
It is the duty of us, grown-ups to properly guide, influence and humanize children,I think.
My opinion doesn't mean we, translators can modify the text easily.
I am not specialized in gaming and seldom receive projects though,
exempli causa, translators with expertise in scientific fields would understand
all meanings of abbreviations and signs in the text and put them into correctly.
They wouldn't ignore them.
Also they wouldn't translate "brain-stem neuron" as "cerebral neuron".
It is just a personal opinion.
Thank you in advance.
[Edited at 2011-10-24 13:22 GMT]
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Kay Barbara United Kingdom Local time: 01:13 Member (2008) English to German + ...
Thanks for this great link!
Oct 24, 2011
Thank you Alain, this is a very significant ruling. Brilliant!
The ruling also addresses the relevance of Anderson's publication on "The effect of video game violence on physiological desensitization to real-life violence" (as mentioned by Mami) ... hardly a scientific approach - not worth commenting any further.
@Mami: "[...]the duty of us, grown-ups to properly guide, influence and humanize children[...]" is a commendable ideal but I would never ever apply it to a professional context. As a translator you have to reproduce the atmosphere and flair of games authentically - you must not soften any violence, language or other because of your own moral ideals. By the way, the international rating systems for computer/video games seem to work just fine - and the remaining "risks" should be addressed by the parents.
Alain Dellepiane wrote:
Thank you for the quick answer, and sorry for being so inquisitive, but gaming fought a long battle for its freedom of speech and it's great to see it finally recognized!
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Mami Yamaguchi Japan Member (2008) English to Japanese + ...
re-explanation.
Oct 24, 2011
Kay wrote:
>As a translator you have to reproduce the atmosphere and flair of games
>authentically -
My opinion doesn't mean we, translators can modify the text easily
((as I said previously)).
@Kay
Please read the below again (the previous posting) before you say
'I would never ever apply it to a professional context....'.
I am not specialized in gaming and seldom receive projects though,
((exempli causa, translators with expertise in scientific fields would
understandall meanings of abbreviations and signs in the text and
put them into correctly.
They wouldn't ignore them.))
Also they wouldn't translate "brain-stem neuron" as "cerebral neuron".
Please read the atmosphere produced in the sentences
as a professional who can understand the authour's atmosphere
and reproduce it.
In regards to the most products for children in Japan,
now they should be more strictly controled by the government agencies
than the international rating systems for computer/video games.
So this inquietude should be solved by them.
Of course, most gaming software companies should follow the applicable laws.
Recently a friend of mine who has a friend works for a leading company
in this industry said 'softwares or products for children are stringently regulated.'
Also I knew top class gaming translators(specialists) know about it when I heard about it. Both the companies and high-level gaming translators should produce good products considering the ages.
I wrote:
>>It is the duty of us, grown-ups to properly guide, influence and humanize children,I think.
This duty is not from a translator's standpoint, but from those of a member of society.
I am a member of a society before I am a translator.(This is not that I don't translate the gaming projects, but I create children's environment around us are safe from any violences.)
Also I think ,to protect them, we qrown-ups should have knowledge about the real world.
Happily, we translators can glimpse it.
I would like someone to ask to 'stop proclaiming yourself 'a cordinator'
and to translate your dream by yourself to see the wide world.
[2011-10-25 09:01 GMTに編集されました]
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Yumico Tanaka Australia Local time: 10:13 Member (2008) English to Japanese + ...
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Food for a thought
Nov 7, 2011
Hi Allan and everyone else,
This discussion board started from my question of how other translator translated "kill" and I am glad that many of the professional translators use "倒す" not "殺す” because it is the most appropriate use of the word in the context, unless the original text is really into the gruesome killing details, and in which case another question is born in connection to ethics and morality of everyone involved. The translator can choose not to do the job or do the job.
This is a professional board but I am now going to just present some fact points about Japan.
In Japan many aspects are advanced and yet immature in some ways and some things may need to be protected to live a totally (mentally) healthy life in Japan.
I would like everyone to think about the facts below and would like to encourage your own decisions in taking your responsible directions in your, our world.
JAPAN: high population density: 336 people per km2
SUICIDE: 32 000+ per year. Highest rate of suicide in the industrialised world,
almost 100 a day
引きこもり= acute social withdrawal and depression: 1.6 million
(Japanese social young people who seek extreme degree of isolation and confinement, withdrawing from family and society)
long working days：13 hours a day, 80 hours a week=fatherless families
過労死= death from overwork: 5 000+ per year
堕胎 abortion: legal, 250 000 per year
14% of married couples speak to each other for less than 15 minutes each day
10% of married couples do not talk to each other. 40% of married couples are sexless
prostitutes: 200 000 from Thailand and the Philippines
6000 pornographic films made every year
4% junior high school girls, 9% senior high school girls have been involved in prostitution
60% of child pornography comes from Japan (Interpol) where possession of child pornography is not illegal.
And I am sorry but I am not going to participate the discussion after this due to personal reasons...
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