| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Post-editing machine translations is a misnomer but there are now training sessions for it Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 23:25
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
and there is Proz.com which wants to train you in it.
I think it is unfair towards ProZ.com to imply that all training courses on ProZ.com are sanctioned by ProZ.com's owners or staff or that the choice of training courses says something about the ideology of ProZ.com itself.
But a human "assisting" a machine by doing some editing is unaccepatble.
Is the machine assisting the human, or is the human assisting the machine? The distinction can be blurry. For example, to drive a car, you have to use the steering wheel. Therefore, in a very real sense, the human driver is assisting the machine to ambulate appropriately. At the same time, the machine is assisting the human driver to get from A to B.
Well, the translator can look at the MT output and compare it with the OT and decide if it is an acceptable translation. Nevertheless, it is very likely that every single sentence will contain mistakes...
Yes... it is very likely that every single sentence will contain mistakes, as you say. Wait, do you mean to say that you believe PEMT people say otherwise? Please, that is why they require "editing" (or whatever you wish to call it), i.e. to fix the mistakes.
...the words chosen must be checked for accurate terminology etc.
Are we talking about skilled translators who know the subject material well, or inexperienced translators who still have to look up most of the terminology?
You'll end up doing the research, rewriting a whole document in its entirety and/or having to rearrange words and phrases in probably most sentences - an arduous task...
It sounds like you're describing what happens when you have to edit a translation that was done by a translator who doesn't know the source text material very well, or: it sounds like you're describing an editor who edits a translation in a field that he's unfamiliar with. Yes, "arduous" describes it, and if you don't like doing it, you should find a different job.
...and it's like reading something a very bad speaker of that language says and [it] pounds your brain with it.
Yes, but perhaps you are fortunate enough that all your clients send texts to you that were written by skilled writers only, which would explain why you regard this as unusual in the world of translation to have your brain pounded.
It might lead to some form of dumbification or at least some loss of language skill, or at least massive headaches, possibly...
If it does, then you're either not a very good translator, or you're a translator who's been pampered so much that you've forgotten what it means to struggle with text.
[Edited at 2015-02-20 09:11 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:25
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Your thoughts are appreciated.
My thoughts: there's an Italian expression for what's going on here "venditori di fumo" (sellers of nothing but smoke). In my opinion, that's what the MT industry is all about.
Only real translators can spot a mistake and correct it. Only real translators can identify stylistic infelicities and make better suggestions.
The only way in which anyone could ever design MT software, or make it function more effectively, would be to harvest the work of real translators, digest it, and take possession of it whilst getting the real translators to pay for the use of the software.
I fear that "Maximize Your Productivity with Effective Machine Translation Post-Editing" actually means maximise *their* productivity by providing them with free text correction and improvement.
That's the way I see it. I prefer to use my own collection of carefully compiled Word find/replace macros to accelerate the translation process. It's better technology than MT - and I keep control of it.
You wanted people's thoughts; these are mine. Hey ! I've just had an idea for a course I could run: "Maximize Your Productivity with Effective Use of Macros in MSWord"
[Edited at 2015-02-20 09:30 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 17:25
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | No dissing session | Feb 20, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
[
You have begun several thread on ProZ.com about this very same topic (what is the neutral, non-offensive term for "troll"?), so perhaps the lack of interest is not in the topic but in the event (the "event" being: a dissing session about machine translation).
[Edited at 2015-02-20 09:08 GMT]
Me beginning a dissing session?
Ridiculous!
I have a genuine interest in the topic and what MT and post-editing means for translators. From my many contributions to the forums, which you are certainly aware of, you should know that.
[Edited at 2015-02-20 13:48 GMT]
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 23:25
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
| Why not take part? | Feb 20, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I have a genuine interest in the topic and what MT and post-editing means for translators. From my many contributions to the forums, which you are certainly aware of, you should know that.
Just a thought: Mightn't actually joining one of those training sessions you consider so inadequately named be a good idea, then? Just to make sure you aren't tilting at windmills?
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Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 17:25
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | It's about the right approach to the topic | Feb 20, 2015 |
Erik Freitag wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I have a genuine interest in the topic and what MT and post-editing means for translators. From my many contributions to the forums, which you are certainly aware of, you should know that. Just a thought: Mightn't actually joining one of those training sessions you consider so inadequately named be a good idea, then? Just to make sure you aren't tilting at windmills?
No, thanks, I prefer a more open discussion here to "being trained by Proz.com." And I don't agree with their approach to the whole concept.
[Edited at 2015-02-20 19:52 GMT]
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 23:25
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
| Suit yourself | Feb 20, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
No, thanks, I prefer a more open discussion here than "being trained by Proz.com." And I don't agree with their approach to the whole concept.
Suit yourself. Just for the record: I'm rather on your end of the spectrum in this case, but still I can't escape the impression that in your repeated threads on this subject you're vigorously fighting against something you don't know very much about.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I have a genuine interest in the topic and what MT and post-editing means for translators.
If that is so, I still think you might gain some valuable insights by taking part in one of those training sessions. If you see your preconceptions confirmed, all the better!
| | | | | My part to the discussion: | Feb 20, 2015 |
Avoid "post editing" of MT, but should you be asked doing such a job, propose to be paid hourly (by your own rate) only. And beware of CAT jobs bearing a huge amount of 100% matches: they often contain MT stuff, too. And if one is ever thinking about taking a MT job: equip yourself with some good pills against headache...
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 17:25
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I don't know very much - really? | Feb 20, 2015 |
Erik Freitag wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
No, thanks, I prefer a more open discussion here than "being trained by Proz.com." And I don't agree with their approach to the whole concept. Suit yourself. Just for the record: I'm rather on your end of the spectrum in this case, but still I can't escape the impression that in your repeated threads on this subject you're vigorously fighting against something you don't know very much about.
You read all my threads? Thanks.
But seriously, to tell me I don't know very much about the topic is a cheap shot.
If you know so much more about it, why don't you talk a little more about the advantages of PEMT - but wait, you are rather on my side as you say, meaning you agree with me?!
Erik Freitag wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I have a genuine interest in the topic and what MT and post-editing means for translators.
If that is so, I still think you might gain some valuable insights by taking part in one of those training sessions. If you see your preconceptions confirmed, all the better!
I criticize the very concept of MTPE, better known as PEMT as used in one (or actually two) session(s) (I am not criticizing any other training sessions in this thread), for which the trainers have accepted a priori the concept itself and suggest that you can maximize your productivity through PEMT.
This is all wrong in my eyes, for the very and most important fact that this kind of concept (PEMT) is already used by outsourcers to pay less for a job that wouldn't be called "editing" by a professional translator. I hope you follow me here and are not telling me I don't know what I'm talking about.
Jobs are being placed on this portal as editing jobs, translators are supposed to charge less for it than for translations (human translations mind you), we now have training sessions for PEMT on this portal and people who are not aware of the pitfalls will readily jump in and take on "MT post-editing" projects they shouldn't take on - my opinion of course. I can only try to discuss the issue and try to convince colleagues about these pitfalls. But the bigger issue is that "translation" jobs are disguised as "editing" jobs even though the texts are way "past" editing, as another colleague mentioned before.
If you tell me that I don't know anything about the subject, then please explain how you come to that conclusion and show me how much sense these concepts (MT and PEMT) make.
I take it you know as well as I what is going on in our industry and that the competent use of software has nothing to do with what people are actually expected to do when an outsourcer posts a PEMT job on the job board here. What they want is a translation, mostly as perfect as possible, but they tell you it's an editing job based on MT output which is regarded as the "translation" part.
I am convinced that we should first look at what things really are and not simply accept what others feed us as foregone conclusions. Fuzzy matches are a similar issue. Repetitions of words and phrases are but one of the aspects of translating. What this means for the proposed rate for a project is a whole other question, but fuzzies have been used in our industry as a means to pay translators less money. A Mercedes doesn't cost less these days because it has become easier, faster, or simpler to produce it. You are still paying good money for a Mercedes.
Show me an acceptable MT output - and I'm not talking about very similar lists or texts that change a few words (when compared to previous texts or based on "excellent" TMs) that will warrant calling the "post-editing" job "editing" and use this to charge less for your work.
Yes, I use CAT tools, yes, I create and use "good" TMs, but that's not what the concept of PEMT is all about - it clearly is already being used to pay translators even less for their hard work. Or are you arguing that point as well?
Translators need to be paid for accurate translations that they (the human translators) arrive at. They can use all kinds of software to assist them, but it's the translator who must hold the steering wheel and look out the windshield (= at the OT), not the machine. If you let the machine do the "translating," there will be an accident. The accident is already happening. Avoid that crash.
But hey, to each its own.
[Edited at 2015-02-20 16:54 GMT]
edited for typo
[Edited at 2015-02-21 01:11 GMT]
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Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 17:25
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Human-Assisted Machine Pseudo Translation
The problem, IMHO, is not the use of MpT (for heaven's sake, let's stop calling it MT), but the erroneous assumption that this will (or should) reduce translation cost. Soon we will also be hampsters running in circles on our wheels, going nowhere.
[Edited at 2015-02-20 20:28 GMT]
| | | | Kevin Fulton
United States
Local time: 17:25
German to English
| Just another market segment | Feb 20, 2015 |
Some clients only need a "gist" translation, for example in a legal discovery where there may be hundreds, perhaps thousands of documents that need to be reviewed for relevance. In this case MT products may need human review to make them intelligible.
It's not a segment of the market I give much thought to nowadays, although I have done "gist" translations in the past without MT. I was paid on an hourly basis for this.
[Edited at 2015-02-23 15:25 GMT]
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 23:25
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Bernhard,
No offense meant, really. I'm all with you - I can't see myself touching PEMT jobs (or whatever you'd like to call them) within the next decade or two with a ten-foot pole, even if I don't know much about them. On the other hand, I don't complain.
When I said that your rants might make you look like complaining about something you don't know a whole lot about, I was referring to your asking questions like these:
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: What machine/software do you use to get a rough draft that you then edit? Do you have an example of the quality of the MT you use? interpretwhisky wrote:
If you can't see the use of post-editing and machine translations I don't think you work on the types of texts that the pioneers of the field have in mind. Obviously it would be pointless to use it for things like copywriting or tourism or marketing. What types of texts are you referring to? Do you have an example? [Edited at 2015-02-18 19:32 GMT]
All I wanted to say is that you might actually find answers to these questions if you had a look at the training sessions you're complaining about.
I'm outta here - can't really contribute anything useful.
[Bearbeitet am 2015-02-20 18:09 GMT]
| | | | | "Translation" | Feb 20, 2015 |
Talking in terms of "translation" at this point in time is perhaps as useful as talking about "Londoners" or "nurses". Nurses cover a huge range of roles now - from air ambulance nursing to operating theatres, general medicine and mental health. London's population, is now 50% Muslim, I hear. So the terms "Londoner" (in cultural terms) and "nurse" mean everything and nothing at the same time. Perhaps translation is the same.
I have always translated literary type texts, where machi... See more Talking in terms of "translation" at this point in time is perhaps as useful as talking about "Londoners" or "nurses". Nurses cover a huge range of roles now - from air ambulance nursing to operating theatres, general medicine and mental health. London's population, is now 50% Muslim, I hear. So the terms "Londoner" (in cultural terms) and "nurse" mean everything and nothing at the same time. Perhaps translation is the same.
I have always translated literary type texts, where machine translation is worse than useless. Forgive me if I have not read through all the posts, but my feeling is that the "translation" field is so diversified by now that 100 translators will have 100 different ideas of what the job means. Perhaps the fact that "serious agencies" are involved in post MT translation, and that there are high level speeches on the matter, mean that there is probably a demand for this kind of application. Somewhere out there, on the periphery of my universe
Given the kind of texts I do (and want to keep on doing), I don't think it is really an issue. For me. If I am forced to adapt, then I probably will. But there is so much work out there, that those who are that way inclined can find their niche, and profit from it by all accounts. ▲ Collapse
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Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 17:25
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Clarification | Feb 20, 2015 |
Thanks for your feedback, Erik.
Erik Freitag wrote: Bernhard, No offense meant, really. I'm all with you - I can't see myself touching PEMT jobs (or whatever you'd like to call them) within the next decade or two with a ten-foot pole, even if I don't know much about them. On the other hand, I don't complain. When I said that your rants might make you look like complaining about something you don't know a whole lot about, I was referring to your asking questions like these: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
What machine/software do you use to get a rough draft that you then edit?
Do you have an example of the quality of the MT you use?
The emphasis of my question here is on "you," not "one." I am interested in what it is that colleagues find so great about it. "What machine/software do you use to get a rough draft that you then edit?
Do you have an example of the quality of the MT you use?"
I just want to hear of the positive experiences - if they exist. If someone defends the concept, it seems to make sense to ask for evidence.
Erik Freitag wrote: interpretwhisky wrote:
If you can't see the use of post-editing and machine translations I don't think you work on the types of texts that the pioneers of the field have in mind. Obviously it would be pointless to use it for things like copywriting or tourism or marketing. Bernhard Sulzer wrote
What types of texts are you referring to? Do you have an example?
[Edited at 2015-02-18 19:32 GMT]
Same as above. If someone defends ...
[Edited at 2015-02-20 18:36 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 17:25
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Translator versus Translator Machine | Feb 20, 2015 |
Fiona Peterson wrote: Talking in terms of "translation" at this point in time is perhaps as useful as talking about "Londoners" or "nurses". Nurses cover a huge range of roles now - from air ambulance nursing to operating theatres, general medicine and mental health. London's population, is now 50% Muslim, I hear. So the terms "Londoner" (in cultural terms) and "nurse" mean everything and nothing at the same time. Perhaps translation is the same. I have always translated literary type texts, where machine translation is worse than useless. Forgive me if I have not read through all the posts, but my feeling is that the "translation" field is so diversified by now that 100 translators will have 100 different ideas of what the job means. Perhaps the fact that "serious agencies" are involved in post MT translation, and that there are high level speeches on the matter, mean that there is probably a demand for this kind of application. Somewhere out there, on the periphery of my universe Given the kind of texts I do (and want to keep on doing), I don't think it is really an issue. For me. If I am forced to adapt, then I probably will. But there is so much work out there, that those who are that way inclined can find their niche, and profit from it by all accounts.
Have you ever been operated on by a machine, without a doctor present?
I am still waiting for examples of those acceptable translations done by machines.
Even if you trust some form of software to help you in your work, you should be the one familiar with every aspect of it, you shouldn't just take on texts that are based on someone else's TM (not MT) without knowing how good or bad the TM really is. And it should be you who decides whether it is an editing or translation task (you as in "every translator").
[Edited at 2015-02-20 19:57 GMT]
edited for typo
[Edited at 2015-02-21 01:15 GMT]
| | | | | PE a new way to get a good job paying the least, I agree with Bernard | Feb 20, 2015 |
Jorge Payan wrote: interpretwhisky wrote:
I heard some great speeches on the topic last year - one of the most interesting being given at the SDL event in Paris.
And although I understand your concerns - to an extent - I have to say, in the politest way possible, that I think you're spectacularly missing the point.
If you can't see the use of post-editing and machine translations I don't think you work on the types of texts that the pioneers of the field have in mind. Obviously it would be pointless to use it for things like copywriting or tourism or marketing.
You sound like someone's freaked you out about the topic and I really don't think you need to worry. But if you do, why not get in touch with one of the serious companies that specializes in it and ask them to explain when they would recommend post-editing and when they wouldn't.
Because it is a part of "translation" and a quick glance at history should tell you that no-one is going to give up on their mission to innovate the industry using STEM any time soon.
I just wanted to add that I realize some shoddy agencies might try and use it to lower rates, but - and this goes for people worrying about rates being lowered too - that shouldn't worry a good translator. People that want and need good translations will pay for them. If not the first time, they certainly will the second time.
[Edited at 2015-02-18 19:04 GMT] People will attend these training courses just because, like it or not, machine translation is not going to disappear and will be used for the markets it can be useful for; of course not for literary translations, besides those types interpretwhisky already mentioned. There is too much money invested already in the subject, and whoever wants to survive in the general market will have to adapt to that forthcoming reality.
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