| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | To DTP or not to DTP Thread poster: Viktoria Gimbe
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Ruxi
German to Romanian
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| See my thread here two days ago... | Nov 6, 2006 |
Victoria, I don't know for sure what you mean by DTP, but reading your posting and the answers, I can see that this is actually the same question I asked two days ago here, in the same section (about duties and equipment of a translator and what we should offer).
I have the feeling that people have not understand what I meant and there I got the answer that a translator must offer anything to the client.
Here, in your thread everybody seems to think different and I have the same opin... See more Victoria, I don't know for sure what you mean by DTP, but reading your posting and the answers, I can see that this is actually the same question I asked two days ago here, in the same section (about duties and equipment of a translator and what we should offer).
I have the feeling that people have not understand what I meant and there I got the answer that a translator must offer anything to the client.
Here, in your thread everybody seems to think different and I have the same opinion: translators do often much more than they should do.
So I am now very confused, I don't know where the truth is.
Back to your question:
I also believe that DTP is not the duty of a translator, but many clients, and agencies expect this from us.
I don't know where it started.
The related aspects are: price, time, aditional skills and equipment.
If the original document is made in the classic Office package it is a reasonable work to do, cause all people know to use it and have it on computer. Sometimes the original documents are so artistical, with pictures, frames, designs made with special methods and especially on -pdf.
I never understood the sense of .pdf documents.
As I said somewhere before, for the translation of a document it is usually 1/3 real translation work and the rest is DTP and I don't know if our price reflects our aditional work and investments, as we are payed by translated word, sentence, character or whatever.
As I said I am very confused in the field.
We can not educate clients if most colleagues are ready to do everything and invest a lot in aditional skills and tools. ▲ Collapse
| | | | NMR (X)
France
Local time: 13:49
French to Dutch
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Williamson wrote: Dyran Altenburg wrote:
I do DTP at the tune of US$50/hour (plus translation fees, of course).
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Dyran Are these the going rates for DTP. I have some dtp programmes, but don't find time to learn them. Should I find time, I would like to know how much to charge. Perhaps by the hour+number of translated words.
Yes. Btw Quark XPress costs several thousands of dollars/euros. (the original package + updates). I was formerly a DTP-specialist, and own a Quark and Pagemaker licence, but don't do it anymore. I think it is now work for experts. You needs software, fonts, a big laser printer, and a thorough training in designing and typography.
The tricky thing is Powerpoint. I think every translator now can handle this format, at least if the original file already exists, so client's requests for translations of Powerpoint files are reasonable. But it takes more time, which should be charged as a supplementary service, the same as your translation price per hour... or more (DTP specialists are very well paid, and invoice EACH correction). But creating Powerpoint files from scratch is not the work of the translator, and of course not for free.
| | | | Dyran Altenburg (X) 
United States
Local time: 07:49
English to Spanish
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| Going... going... gone | Nov 6, 2006 |
Williamson wrote:
Are these the going rates for DTP.
Pretty much.
Bear in mind that to be competitive you have to be really good at it (*ahem*), and also have all the related hardware if your client requires print-ready copy.
FWIW, I don't consider tweaking or creating PPT files or websites DTP per se, although clients pay me the same rate of $50/hour for it.
--
Dyran
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:49
Flemish to English
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| Market-niche and supplement | Nov 6, 2006 |
When many translators offer an identical service, you might need something to attract those customers, who are looking for the extra and are willing to pay for it.
One of my acquaintances is a professional printer and he owns a QuarkPress licence. In the near future, I intend to ask him to teach me how to work with Quark.
What is the going rate for DTP-specialists?
How do they invoice?
Powerpoint was one of the packages, I needed to know to get my ECDL. Its use i... See more When many translators offer an identical service, you might need something to attract those customers, who are looking for the extra and are willing to pay for it.
One of my acquaintances is a professional printer and he owns a QuarkPress licence. In the near future, I intend to ask him to teach me how to work with Quark.
What is the going rate for DTP-specialists?
How do they invoice?
Powerpoint was one of the packages, I needed to know to get my ECDL. Its use in translation hovers between DTP and translation. ▲ Collapse
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Viktoria Gimbe
Canada
Local time: 07:49
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | I think the following structure is sound | Nov 6, 2006 |
Tell me what you think.
The value of translation is X.
- Translation and DTP for PowerPoint: X + $3 per slide
- Translation and DTP for Quark: X + xyz% of the total price of translation, depending on how heavy the DTP in Quark would be (graphically heavy documents, lots of formatting, etc.)
- Translation and DTP for FrameMaker: X + the number of hours spent on importing/exporting in Trados and proofing (I think FrameMaker docs need to be proofe... See more Tell me what you think.
The value of translation is X.
- Translation and DTP for PowerPoint: X + $3 per slide
- Translation and DTP for Quark: X + xyz% of the total price of translation, depending on how heavy the DTP in Quark would be (graphically heavy documents, lots of formatting, etc.)
- Translation and DTP for FrameMaker: X + the number of hours spent on importing/exporting in Trados and proofing (I think FrameMaker docs need to be proofed by the same translator, expecially if there are indexes at the end of the doc, tables of contents, etc.)
Does this make sense?
Feel free to change the variants in my examples (maybe $3 per slide is too little or too much to charge, for example). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Hector Aires
Local time: 08:49
Member
English to Spanish
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| The bull is not so fierce | Nov 7, 2006 |
Ruxi wrote:
Victoria, I don't know for sure what you mean by DTP, but reading your posting and the answers, I can see that this is actually the same question I asked two days ago here, in the same section (about duties and equipment of a translator and what we should offer).
I have the feeling that people have not understand what I meant and there I got the answer that a translator must offer anything to the client.
Here, in your thread everybody seems to think different and I have the same opinion: translators do often much more than they should do.
So I am now very confused, I don't know where the truth is.
Back to your question:
I also believe that DTP is not the duty of a translator, but many clients, and agencies expect this from us.
I don't know where it started.
The related aspects are: price, time, aditional skills and equipment.
If the original document is made in the classic Office package it is a reasonable work to do, cause all people know to use it and have it on computer. Sometimes the original documents are so artistical, with pictures, frames, designs made with special methods and especially on -pdf.
I never understood the sense of .pdf documents.
As I said somewhere before, for the translation of a document it is usually 1/3 real translation work and the rest is DTP and I don't know if our price reflects our aditional work and investments, as we are payed by translated word, sentence, character or whatever.
As I said I am very confused in the field.
We can not educate clients if most colleagues are ready to do everything and invest a lot in aditional skills and tools.
Hi Ruxi and Viktoria !!
My English is so bad (that's why I only make EN>Spa translations) that I was not sure if replying or not, but temptation was stronger.
Translation is one thing and edition is other quite different so your customer should pay for it. In fact, it is a job I enjoy doing.
I have been dealing with DTPs for the last 6 years, after I realized it could be a good bussiness. Believe me, the bull is not so fierce as it seems. Why ?? because you do not need to be a DTP super-specialist for replacing text over QXP, Innd, FM, PM, CorelDraw, AutoCAD and other softwares I currently use (except Corel Ventura, the worst investment I ever did). In general, fees are good enough, better than translating. In this point I agree with Dyran's rates.
Now I’m proud to offer translations ready to print but… not everything are roses.
Using Trados Tageditor or any other CAT tool with the necessary features is a must. See http://www.internationalwriters.com/ComplexFormats.pdf, it is a good document to clear some doubts.
You will need a large font files store also, I recommend Adobe Font Folio. If you do not have the font file the customer source file comes with, you can ask him/her to send you the missing font files or buy them or change them in a non permanent way with a font of similar length and height, the PC or Mac of the customer will replace the text with the original fonts.
I have invested far than 10K dollars on this but, as example, I have edited more than 5000 pages over FrameMaker, the first DTP I bought 6 years ago, and a similar number over Quark. Now, InDesign is the trend.
However, despite Tag Editor or how friendly the DTP software is, the worst task is making the "fit in the page" when the target text is longer than the source one, the customer wishes a file similar to the original, and there is not enough room. Besides, many English DTP writers and designers, do their job for their audience and use all the available space.
If target text doesn’t fit within the text boxes, you will need to change the kerning, interlining and fonts size, margins, draw out pictures and so to make space but keeping the text READABLE. When all of these fail you can create another page but, if this is not possible, you should say the same with less words, sometimes not so easy.
I usually edit over several western languages other than Spanish. In such cases the customer should provide you the translated text, the DTP file(s) and all the ancilliary files to be embedded over the DTP file(s). Then, after your edition, he should get the work be reviewed by the target translator, not for the translation itself but for the hyphenations you could have wrongly inserted.
Another big difficulty is to evaluate how many hours a job will take. The evaluation relies on the experience you have. At the beginning you will have a lot of headaches and will work a lot for a little but keep your chin up, this will change as time goes by.
There are many other details to be considered but this is going on too long.
I insist, you do NOT NEED TO BE A DTPs DESIGNER, that’s another task, just for replacing text. But should invest, be smart, have customers, a lot of patience and, the most important, know exactly and without doubts what your customer wants and is willing to pay.
Hope this helps.
El Étor
| | | | NMR (X)
France
Local time: 13:49
French to Dutch
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Williamson wrote:
What is the going rate for DTP-specialists?
How do they invoice?
About € 50 / hr. DTP people always make quotes per hour or per working day. Note that one page of heavy DTP can take several hours, in other cases you can do several pages per hour. Experienced people can tell you this. One of the big differences with translation was that my quotes were always accepted without discussion.
The invoices are always identical to the quote, sometimes a bit less to make a good impression, never more. A good quote saves time for invoicing.
In the beginning I thought that there would be a trend to have the translator replace the text in the original software package and that this could be a supplementary service for me, but in practice it is not, because printing houses often don't want to give out their files and don't like translators messing them up. There was also a big font problem: I sold my Mac and have not the same fonts on my PC. So I went back to plain translation in Word, Excel and Powerpoint and leave the rest to the layout shops. Besides, translation and DTP are two different workflows: it is very difficult to concentrate at the same time on the contents and on the layout.
I just kept the "typographical eye" and see double spaces and bad hyphenation everywhere.
| | | | Verónica Garello (X)
Argentina
Local time: 08:49
English to Spanish
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| A Word from a DTPer | Jan 9, 2007 |
Hello all,
I've been working as a DTP specialist for more than 4 years, first at a Translation Agency, where I created the DTP department, and now I have a small DTP business on my own and provide support to translators and translations agencies as well. I think I can provide a vision from the "dtp side" on this matter
I receive all kinds of translated documents for formatting, including PowerPoint, Excel... See more Hello all,
I've been working as a DTP specialist for more than 4 years, first at a Translation Agency, where I created the DTP department, and now I have a small DTP business on my own and provide support to translators and translations agencies as well. I think I can provide a vision from the "dtp side" on this matter
I receive all kinds of translated documents for formatting, including PowerPoint, Excel, Visio and Word files. But sometimes my client's requests go beyond DTP tasks: we are asked to perform word counts for our clients to quote translations to their clients. Sometimes we extract the text from a PDF or from Image Files to Word for translators to be able to translate them using a CAT tool. Sometimes we are asked to export the content of Quark or InDesing files to TradosTAG format and then to automatically flow the translation back into the source files and then do DTP on those files. Other times we receive translated Word documents to be formatted to look just like a given pdf...
After DTP is done, we produce pdf proofs for client's review. This review is not only a formatting review. Translators/Editors place their comments into the pdf proofs for us to change/correct some word, sentence or a whole paragraph. But sometimes, the editors do not handle Acrobat Professional, so they place their comments/edits on hard-copies, which are faxed to us. If they used a CAT tool for translating, they update the TM on their side as well, manually.
As a personal opinion, I believe translators are not obligated to know or perform other tasks than those related to translating/editing if they do not want/are not able to. And, if they do, I think they should charge for them. DTP can be a really nightmare for translators which are not familiar with DTP tools and do not have intentions to learn how to DTP. I remember a translator once said to me "Thanks for taking care of these things. Now I can do my job"
Hope this helps!
Cheers,
Verónica ▲ Collapse
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| Two different professions | Jan 15, 2007 |
Some always interesting issues here...
Ruxi wrote:
about duties and equipment of a translator and what we should offer
Not so many decades ago, a typical translator worked with a typewriter. One or another might still be using a Parker 51 fountain pen. So it's pretty safe to assume that the translator's output takes the form of... TEXT!
The whole misconception about translators doing DTP stems from both being usually done with the very same computer. All right, I even subtitle DVDs with this same computer; will every translator do it as well?
... I got the answer that a translator must offer anything to the client.
... and I have the same opinion: translators do often much more than they should do.
So I am now very confused, I don't know where the truth is.
You've said it yourself. Translators often do more than they should. What you and I don't know is: WHY???
Maybe that "same computer" thing above has become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I didn't introduce myself at the outset. I am a translator, ENPT-BR if it matters, as well as a DTP operator. I had to assemble for publishing - not electronically at that time, 1973 - the very first translation I did professionally, as well as most of them ever since. Of course, when PageMaker came up, I immediately hopped on the bandwagon. Even running under the iconless Windows 2.01 on a 4.77 MHz PC-XT, it was much, much faster than the conventional method. And I could do it all by myself; no need for outside vendors such as phototypesetters.
On the other hand, I am NOT an interpreter. Okay, I did consecutive maybe for half a dozen times, but I'm still not an interpreter.
I think every professional should draw the line where their job ends. Even though I wear two hats, I calculate the respective prices separately. Sometimes I just translate, no DTP. There are occasions where I do the DTP with someone else's translation.
I also believe that DTP is not the duty of a translator, but many clients, and agencies expect this from us.
I don't know where it started.
You are right at that. But it's just like the (superb!) example someone gave here, of cajoling an electrician into fixing the plumbing as well.
The real problem is when clients/agencies expect a translator to go beyond his/her call of duty FOR FREE.
If the original document is made in the classic Office package it is a reasonable work to do, cause all people know to use it and have it on computer.
WordFast won't change a document in Word, and even a translator who doesn't use CAT tools may simply overwrite the original text and keep it formatted. Minor adjustments are OK.
Sometimes the original documents are so artistical, with pictures, frames, designs made with special methods and especially on -pdf.
I never understood the sense of .pdf documents.
PDF makes a lot of sense, believe me. If properly created, it will open exactly as it should in virtually any computer system. Windows, Mac, Linux, even DOS (so they say - never tried it). Furthermore, the Acrobat Reader is free. So anyone can download a PDF file and print it properly, regardless of computer system.
On top of that, PDF files are small. Last time I bothered to check an extreme case, a 64 MB PageMaker file, after distilled into a PDF, fit into a 1.44 MB floppy.
However there are two types of PDF. Those distilled from the original application, and the scanned ones. With the former ones, if properly created, one can extract all the material (text and graphics), translate it, and then re-create a translated PDF with ANY, yes, ANY first grade DTP software. These are: InDesign, PageMaker, FrameMaker, and QuarkXpress. Any other MIGHT (I'm not saying it will) impose restrictions. And the surprise is that after the PDF has been re-created, if it is well done, nobody will be able to tell which DTP software was used.
The latter group, scanned PDFs, means trouble. I wrote an article about translators pairing up with DTP artists ( http://www.accurapid.com/journal/38dtp.htm ). I suggest that the DTP artist, in this case, should extract all the text from the PDF for the translator, so that s/he gets a normal translation job to do.
As I said somewhere before, for the translation of a document it is usually 1/3 real translation work and the rest is DTP and I don't know if our price reflects our aditional work and investments, as we are payed by translated word, sentence, character or whatever.
Definitely, DTP shouldn't be given for free, regardless if it's done by the translator or someone else. If the translator does it, s/he should thing of being another person while doing it.
As I said I am very confused in the field.
We can not educate clients if most colleagues are ready to do everything and invest a lot in aditional skills and tools.
Well, these colleagues are giving away money, and you can't stop anyone from doing it. They are just like other colleagues who translate for less than 1¢/word.
However imagine if one of these free-DTP translators discovers too late that the publication is DTP-wise too complex for their skills, and s/he has to hire some top-flight specialist and pay what s/he is worth.
When agencies/clients can't squeeze the price any more, they try to squeeze in more service for the same buck. Would a doctor include a free boob job with a tonsilectomy? I bet not. It's a matter of self-esteem and professional pride. Unless it stops, in ten years from now clients/agencies will be demanding 1,000 printed copies included in the per-word translation price.
[Edited at 2007-01-15 00:31]
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