| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Anything to do against butter-finger proofreaders? Thread poster: MariusV
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| Fight if it's right. | Mar 5, 2007 |
If you KNOW your work is top-notch then, by all means, defend it.
Gerard wrote:
'll aggressively and mercilessly attack any proofreader who dares to question any word I've translated [...]. I'll dissect any comment the proofreader has made and will refute it with all means available.
[...][/quote]
Viktoria wrote:
ll I can tell you is to stick by your version. Explain every single "correction" you don't agree with, provide references to back it up and politely ask them to please have a second person take a look.
[...][/quote]
I couldn't agree more.
Good luck!
| | | | MariusV 
Lithuania
Local time: 23:40
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | btw, an interesting development to the situation | Mar 5, 2007 |
Just wanted to share the further development - the "neutral opinion" of the 2nd proofreader had to come before Feb 27th at the latest (just as the client told me). I have also asked (in a polite manner) some substantiations of the 2nd proofreader if he/she and WHY agrees/disagrees on the "errors found" by the 1st proofreader. Mr X (the person in charge of the test translation) somehow went for a holiday for quite a long time (probably went skating), or maternity leave, or got sick or smth. - now... See more Just wanted to share the further development - the "neutral opinion" of the 2nd proofreader had to come before Feb 27th at the latest (just as the client told me). I have also asked (in a polite manner) some substantiations of the 2nd proofreader if he/she and WHY agrees/disagrees on the "errors found" by the 1st proofreader. Mr X (the person in charge of the test translation) somehow went for a holiday for quite a long time (probably went skating), or maternity leave, or got sick or smth. - now their "big boss" took over this issue and wrote a very kind reply apologizing "for the inconveniences caused" and promising to resolve this issue and give me their decision (on what?) ASAP. Moreover, it turned out that the 1st proofreader was not a proofreader - now they call him/her "their own validator". That is even more interesting (as I think that "own validator" and "some proofreader" differ in functions?).
You know what I feel? I think this agency now cannot simply tell me that the proofreader or "their own validator" (or "invalidator") was really not fair because I substantiated and explained in a greatest detail all the things where I disagree and these things are more than obvious whereas the "invalidator" cannot substantiate any of the "grammar errors" for a very simple reason as these are not errors (there have never been such apart from the mark of the proofreader "grammar error")...
I do not actually feel this client will have a big desire to work with me because I took quite a stubborn position (despite I managed to defend myself) and did not manage to control some of my negative emotions. But who knows - maybe it will happen vice versa?
I have made one conclusion from the opinions of other colleagues in this post (and I want to thank you all and any person - all opinions and advices were both interesting and valuable). The conclusion is the following - if the translator really feels (and is sure) he/she is right and provided a job of good quality - it is NOT the translator who has to prove to the proofreader that the proofreader was wrong. THIS IS the proofreader who has to prove and SUBSTANTIATE clearly, logically, and professionally the "deficiencies" found in translation. I think this should work well if these "errors" are just for finding errors as to show "I am better - and this translator is a tramp" (for the client who has no idea about the target language)...And for further discussion the translator DOES HAVE all the "aces" in the hands - all these butter-finger proofreaders will not be able to substantiate what they have "changed", and a professional proofreader will not have to substantiate actually anything if the translation quality is good. A simple sentence "Sorry, but I do not agree to the vast majority of your proof-reader’s changes - would you mind asking your proofreader to substantiate them or, at least the most critical ones?" should help a lot. If there is no substantiation done by a professional specialist = there are no claims for quality. All the rest is nothing, zero, null. + The translator will not have to spend a lot of time and energy proving he/she is not a donkey (at least just to defend the elementary self-respect)?
What do you think?
[Edited at 2007-03-05 20:36] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Karen Vincent-Jones (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:40
French to English
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| You should always challenge incorrect or unfair proofreading | Mar 7, 2007 |
I have just had a similar experience, not with a test translation but with the 'proofreader' of an article (on the illegal drugs market) that I had translated for an agency I have done a lot of work for and who treat me well. They themselves seemed surprised when my text was returned with a lot of red underlinings, words crossed through etc, and asked me if I agreed with the corrections.
Well, I certainly didn't! The vast majority were quite unjustified- I found 2 where there was a genuine... See more I have just had a similar experience, not with a test translation but with the 'proofreader' of an article (on the illegal drugs market) that I had translated for an agency I have done a lot of work for and who treat me well. They themselves seemed surprised when my text was returned with a lot of red underlinings, words crossed through etc, and asked me if I agreed with the corrections.
Well, I certainly didn't! The vast majority were quite unjustified- I found 2 where there was a genuine error, I case where I had missed a word out, and another where I had used the wrong statistical term. Fair enough. But even here, the term they had replaced it with was even more wrong! The rest of the 'corrections' were either wrong themselves- in one case, an elementary grammatical error, or matters of style where I could show - using examples from the Internet-that the expression I used was in fact both acceptable and widely used.
I can really sympathise with Marius- it is a horrible feeling to have your professional competence challenged by somebody who is clearly less qualified than you are.
But I do think it is essential to challenge these pseudo-corrections, even if it is time-consuming. It is YOUR professional reputation that is at stake.
Marius, I hope you have a happy ending to this unpleasant experience. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ramon Soto
United States
Local time: 16:40
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Doing one's best | Mar 8, 2007 |
I guess the easiest way to deal with negative feedback from clients is to say to them "I did my best. Are you sure the proofreader did his/her best?" That should be enough in most cases.
Other than that, there is no such thing as a perfect translation or two translators who think the same way. We are therefore bound to come across A LOT of fair/unfair corrections of our work.
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Alicia Casal
Argentina
Local time: 17:40
English to Spanish
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| I ask for the corrections: | Mar 8, 2007 |
Sometimes i get them, analyze them, and very often, i realize the proofreader is wrong.
Just in case i check them with some colleague.
So I send a very detailed explanation. Of course, very polite.
A.
[Edited at 2007-03-08 15:48]
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 23:40
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | well, yes, but the situation is a little different | Mar 8, 2007 |
Ramon Soto wrote:
I guess the easiest way to deal with negative feedback from clients is to say to them "I did my best. Are you sure the proofreader did his/her best?" That should be enough in most cases.
Other than that, there is no such thing as a perfect translation or two translators who think the same way. We are therefore bound to come across A LOT of fair/unfair corrections of our work.
Hi Ramon,
Yes, I really agree with your point and when the proofreader finds some things and even just have some preference considerations to make the test better, it is always a pleasure to see, compare and discuss. I mean criticism from a higher lever professional is always just for the good.
BUT here the case is totally different - imagine you work for 10 years in the area (in this SPECIFIC area) and from the knowledge accumulated you can even organize trainings for the specialists of the area, and then it turns out that you do not know the "abc" things in this area and EVEN make 8 grammar mistakes per 2/3 page? And not a single explanation why? OK, the proofreader might not be correct in all cases, but if he/she things something is wrong or can be made better, he/she could provide at least a short explanation on the change? Wouln't you defend yourself against the client if the client maintains "your translation is not acceptable but it has 20 mistakes per page - just cannot tell why because me, as the client, do not understand your target language"? Is ity logical (at least)? As far as I understand, any claims for poor quality or supposedly poor quality SHALL BE substantiated, and explained?
After a very clear, logical and substantiated counter-comment to the client as why the translator (me) does not agree with what the proofreader mentioned, it is already the 3rd week when there is nothing heard from the client. I am quite happy that I managed to put that "proofreader" to the wall - "now explain why do you maintain these are mistakes...and a complete silence" So...
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 23:40
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Alicia Casal wrote:
Sometimes i get them, analyze them, and very often, i realize the proofreader is wrong.
Just in case i check them with some colleague.
So I send a very detailed explanation. Of course, very polite.
A.
[Edited at 2007-03-08 15:48]
I agree with you. I think the leason to be learned from this situation (and thanks to your consideration) is very simple - "OK, mistakes in translation - BUT please send explanations why do you think these are mistakes - explanation done by a professional and competent person > then, if the proofreader is not right, a good reply back with explaining one's point"...Or otherwise - no explanations, means no mistakes. Anyone can put a remark "grammar mistake" just to any word
P.S. Being polite in such situations is the best exam for tolerance
| | | | Ramon Soto
United States
Local time: 16:40
English to Spanish
+ ...
| I know exactly what you're saying | Mar 8, 2007 |
Hi Marius,
I definitely know what you're talking about. I'm sure every translator out there has similar horror stories. My post was very brief because I normally prefer to keep comments short and to the point. I was just trying to tackle the larger issue rather than any specific case.
I'm not in any way trying to minimize your predicament. I'm just trying to explain how to cope with these things --and what we can learn from them. There's always something to learn from every ch... See more Hi Marius,
I definitely know what you're talking about. I'm sure every translator out there has similar horror stories. My post was very brief because I normally prefer to keep comments short and to the point. I was just trying to tackle the larger issue rather than any specific case.
I'm not in any way trying to minimize your predicament. I'm just trying to explain how to cope with these things --and what we can learn from them. There's always something to learn from every challenge, even if it's just the opportunity to size up a client and know better than to work for them.
You say "...it is always a pleasure to see, compare and discuss. I mean criticism from a higher lever professional is always just for the good." Well, I've received both unfair criticism from higher level pros and fair comments or suggestions by the lowliest of creatures in the translation food chain.
In terms of substantiating and explaining mistakes and claims, I generally try not to be dragged into that unless the client specifically asks me to do it. By trying to avoid this you save yourself a lot of time and unnecessary grief. Your conscience will be clear as long as you've done your best, and any worthwhile client should be able to recognize this.
In cases like the one you're talking about, where the client doesn't know any better because he/she does speak the source language, I'd always try to shift the burden of proving me wrong to the client himself. I mean, do you always have to explain yourself even when you did a good job? Your client should be open and willing to consult with a third party, unless he wants to favor the proofreader for some personal reason.
I've had clients make the most unthinkable comments or changes to my translations. However, more often than not, I don't start by trying to justify my choices. I either tell them "The corrections are not right, and anyone who really knows the target language should be able to tell you that" or "I still don't agree with all or some of the corrections. I would advise you to ignore them, but by all means keep them if you think they're right." As I said before, that shifts the whole burden of proof to the client. He will realize that you really mean what you're saying. Now instead of having you pore one more time over a thankless job, and making you send e-mails back and forth, he will have to do his homework by himself before coming back to you with more complaints. If your client does not react well to your reply, this might mean one of two things: Your translation was not as good as you thought OR your client is a pain in the neck and it would be advisable to stop working for him altogether.
There's more to say, but I have to get back to work now.
Best of luck in your endeavors! ▲ Collapse
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MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 23:40
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Dear Ramon,
I will copy these words somewhere as the golden words
"Your conscience will be clear as long as you've done your best, and any worthwhile client should be able to recognize this. In cases like the one you're talking about, where the client doesn't know any better because he/she does speak the source language, I'd always try to shift the burden of proving me wrong to the client himself."
... See more Dear Ramon,
I will copy these words somewhere as the golden words
"Your conscience will be clear as long as you've done your best, and any worthwhile client should be able to recognize this. In cases like the one you're talking about, where the client doesn't know any better because he/she does speak the source language, I'd always try to shift the burden of proving me wrong to the client himself."
"If your client does not react well to your reply, this might mean one of two things: Your translation was not as good as you thought OR your client is a pain in the neck and it would be advisable to stop working for him altogether."
And the last part of the sentence "would be advisable to stop working for him altoget" I think I will really implement in practice. Well, always have to look into the positive side of things - thanks God (or whomever) that it was just a small test translation. I imagine the situation if there were some 100 pages of a real job - well-done, completed on time, etc. and then such a "genius" proofreader comes out from the bushes telling the translation was scrap, client then "does not know the target language" and the payment "hooks up" till (if luckily) the translator manages to prove he/she was not a donkey - time wasted, all these emotions, etc. instead of spending your time on a good and professional client.
Take care and thanks a lot.
Marius ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I have been there I have done it | Mar 8, 2007 |
I have also experienced the idea that ‘my translation sucks’. I got that translation to do for a well known Polish show jumping magazine, and I was really excited since I am a show jumping judge myself for quite a few years now, and I know all the ins and outs of show jumping business. My enthusiasm was quickly shattered when I received a proofread version of my translation. The person who proofread my work had that vague idea in her head that her task is to change the translated text. It d... See more I have also experienced the idea that ‘my translation sucks’. I got that translation to do for a well known Polish show jumping magazine, and I was really excited since I am a show jumping judge myself for quite a few years now, and I know all the ins and outs of show jumping business. My enthusiasm was quickly shattered when I received a proofread version of my translation. The person who proofread my work had that vague idea in her head that her task is to change the translated text. It did not really matter whether the translation needed corrections or not, the changes simply had to have been made. So, she basically translated the whole text again in a new Word document that's why I am saying she as when I opened the 'proofread version' I could see name and surname of the creator. What’s more there was no explanation whatsoever why changes have been made.
You do get this kind of WANNABE proofreaders who have to show off’ or at least think they have to, introducing as many corrections as possible. As if to say: ‘Hey agency! See how many mistakes I have found, I am the one you are looking for’.
Obviously, I laugh at it now as I still receive work from the agency whose proofreader corrected my work, but there and then it was frustrating and I was really aggravated.
I am not trying to say that all the proofreaders are bad, nasty people, far from it. I have learned a lot from those who proofread my work and I would say those people are the most valuable source of feedback you can get. But I have no sympathy for proofreaders who are time wasters because they want to show off.
At the end of the day you cast the deciding vote whether you accept changes or not.
There is another post about proofreaders which is worth reading: http://www.proz.com/topic/53472 ▲ Collapse
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 23:40
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | yes, exactly the case | Mar 8, 2007 |
Anita Wright wrote:
What’s more there was no explanation whatsoever why changes have been made.
You do get this kind of WANNABE proofreaders who have to show off’ or at least think they have to, introducing as many corrections as possible. As if to say: ‘Hey agency! See how many mistakes I have found, I am the one you are looking for’.
| | | | the Train
Local time: 21:40
English to Arabic
+ ...
| This is the key word | Mar 10, 2007 |
Niina Lahokoski wrote:
I think the best you can do is to ask for a second opinion of another proofreader. Then just cross your fingers and hope that that person is sensible and honest.
I agree that honesty is very important here. There are many examples of proof-readers who do not know what they are doing, and there 'the other' proof-readers who know what they're doing very well... and that is to make hundreds of 'corrections' for them to justify why they took money for the job.
A hilarious example was when an agency sent my Arabic-English translation to a non-native speaker to edit it. The gentleman's mother tongue was Somali. He did not leave a single line without deletions and comments that were too many to follow. The agency requested an explanation from me as to why this happened. I gave them this explanation; YOUR EDITOR DOES NOT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN A HE AND A SHE IN ARABIC.
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