| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | -ize/-ise in the same text Thread poster: Alexandra Speirs
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Robert Tucker (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:51
German to English
+ ...
transparx wrote:
Assume there is a set of 10 items. You select one and make it a priority over all the others. Then, you select another one and do the same --until you've gone through the whole set. Once you're done, you have a list of items ordered according to priority.
But this rather implies they did not have any real order of priority in the first place.
transparx wrote:
It'd be interesting to know what the other examples are.
Computerize also comes to mind. Putting data into a computer is not making the data seem to be a computer.
transparx wrote:
What about advise? Here -ise has nothing to do with ...
The main idea of keeping the -ize ending is to distinguish between those words whose suffix relates to the Greek suffix -ιζο (in capitals: -IZO) from those words whose ending is of different origin.
| | | | Dagmar Cook
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:51
English to Czech
+ ...
| ize/ise... it all depends on a whole lot of water! | Apr 27, 2007 |
The water, of course, being the Atlantic Ocean!
The way I see it is this... The Pilgrim fathers left the UK shores during a time when spelling was very much in flux. The UK English evolved one way, and US English evolved another way. There is no doubt that UK English still bears the scars of the 'Court' language up to the reign of King George 1, i.e. French. By this time, the Pilgrim Fathers had long departed! It wasn't until 135 years later, when Dr Samuel Johnson published his wor... See more The water, of course, being the Atlantic Ocean!
The way I see it is this... The Pilgrim fathers left the UK shores during a time when spelling was very much in flux. The UK English evolved one way, and US English evolved another way. There is no doubt that UK English still bears the scars of the 'Court' language up to the reign of King George 1, i.e. French. By this time, the Pilgrim Fathers had long departed! It wasn't until 135 years later, when Dr Samuel Johnson published his work 'A Dictionary of the English Language', that spelling was 'set in stone' as it were.
Personally, I can't come to terms with 'ize' under any circumstances, just like I can't come to terms with 'center' (centre) or 'tire' (tyre... surely 'tire' is a verb, not a noun?)
I can't come to terms, either, with the US pronunciation of 'missile' (missle) or 'nuclear' (newkular). Still, that's their pronunciation problem, and not mine!
Then there is the added help (help?) of George 'Dubya' Bush, who simply makes up words as he goes along... 'insaneness' (insanity?), 'generalness' (generality?), 'fertileness' (fertility?), diplomaticness (diplomacy?), obstinance, obstinancy and obstinanceness (obstinacy?), etc, etc, etc! See what I mean? We poor folk on this side of the 'pond', who speak proper UK English, don't have a chance when the president of the US doesn't even speak the same language! We are left with having to guess which word he actually meant to say! This is not just relevant to Bush, but to many examples of US/UK English usage, and believe me, I have come across some REAL oddities in my time!
Come to think of it, maybe the ise/ize 'problem' is miniscule by comparison!
As we say in Czech... Tady to nedopadne dobře!
We also say... S pozranem tenec!
Enough said, I think! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Tucker (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:51
German to English
+ ...
Dagmar Cook wrote:
... who simply makes up words as he goes along... 'insaneness' (insanity?), 'generalness' (generality?), 'fertileness' (fertility?), diplomaticness (diplomacy?), obstinance, obstinancy and obstinanceness (obstinacy?), etc, etc, etc!
I think the OED allows the addition of -ness to pretty well any adjective. It is a couple of decades ago now that I discovered there that I could use "necessariness" if I was not talking about full blown "necessity".
Back to the -ise/ize situation, I have been wondering if perhaps the unvoiced s is something that has been disappearing from English pronunciation. Did Chaucer or Shakespeare rhyme words ending in -ize (an unvoiced z) with words like "advise", "surmise", "compromise" etc (which should be pronounced with an unvoiced s or an unvoiced z ?) ?
[Edited at 2007-04-27 16:44]
| | | | | Do UK people like International English? | Apr 30, 2007 |
Peter, I'm wondering if you like international english?
I can only compare to varieties of German, eg Swiss German. As native German German I always stumble on words which should be with German Umlaut sz (ß).
Is this different in UK? Don't you stumble over ize, ization, where you expect ise or isation? All UK webs I know use e.g. localise instead of localize. If they wouldn't mind, wouldn't they use local... See more Peter, I'm wondering if you like international english?
I can only compare to varieties of German, eg Swiss German. As native German German I always stumble on words which should be with German Umlaut sz (ß).
Is this different in UK? Don't you stumble over ize, ization, where you expect ise or isation? All UK webs I know use e.g. localise instead of localize. If they wouldn't mind, wouldn't they use localize?
Renate ▲ Collapse
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Robert Tucker (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:51
German to English
+ ...
A Google search for – localize site:.co.uk – finds 9860 hits, while a search for – localise site:.co.uk – finds "only" 3370 hits.
Taking a link from the first page of the "localize" hits – www.webdictionary.co.uk – I find it gives a definition for "localize" but "localise" yields "Sorry the word "localise" is not in the dictionary".
If British people do prefer the "s" ... See more A Google search for – localize site:.co.uk – finds 9860 hits, while a search for – localise site:.co.uk – finds "only" 3370 hits.
Taking a link from the first page of the "localize" hits – www.webdictionary.co.uk – I find it gives a definition for "localize" but "localise" yields "Sorry the word "localise" is not in the dictionary".
If British people do prefer the "s" version, it is probably for lack of education.
If they think s's are more modern than z's or they just prefer s's to z's for personal aesthetic reasons that's all very well, but it seems to me that it is one more shift of the home of the English language away from its country origin. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dagmar Cook
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:51
English to Czech
+ ...
| At least you spell 'aesthetic' correctly, to UK English! | May 3, 2007 |
Peter, Sorry, I cannot agree with you. A lack of education, indeed?
So my refusal to accept 'americanised' 'ize' is wrong? I don't think so! As I said in an earlier post, I rarely use a dictionary, simply because such use can lead to confusion. Do you 'advize' or 'advise'? Is the result 'advise' or 'advice'? Sorry, but the OED doesn't recognise (ize) advize... this is purely American English, as is their use of 'advise' for our 'advice'.
Do you claim 'milage' or mileage... See more Peter, Sorry, I cannot agree with you. A lack of education, indeed?
So my refusal to accept 'americanised' 'ize' is wrong? I don't think so! As I said in an earlier post, I rarely use a dictionary, simply because such use can lead to confusion. Do you 'advize' or 'advise'? Is the result 'advise' or 'advice'? Sorry, but the OED doesn't recognise (ize) advize... this is purely American English, as is their use of 'advise' for our 'advice'.
Do you claim 'milage' or mileage' payments for your assignments? According to the OED, we could claim either, although probably over 95% of UK English speakers would claim 'mileage'.
One of the main problems with traditional UK English spelling, is that the OED and others are now accepting alternative (americanised) versions of the word as part of our language. This does not make it correct, only that it is open to abuse. Whereas many languages and cultures have hard and fast rules about spelling, and eschew 'imported' variants, I'm afraid that the great English Language is becoming bastardised (ized) by those who left this land centuries ago and have developed their own ways of spelling.
Now, I am left with being FORCED to use 'center', 'color', etc in HTML coding, simply because the HTML language developed in the US, and browsers now accept only this way of spelling words that are basically French in their origin, and incorporated into our language as a result of the Norman invasion. I really don't mind the introduction of words from as early as 1066, but I object to the americanisation of what is, in effect, their mis-spelling of a language that is theirs, as well as ours.
Perhaps we should move to phonetic spelling? To do so would probably require several more characters in our alphabet, a little like Czech, where we have 35! Then we could have hard and fast rules in the spelling of every word in the dictionary, and leave the US to carry on regardless, as they seem to do anyway! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Tucker (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:51
German to English
+ ...
Dagmar Cook wrote:
So my refusal to accept 'americanised' 'ize' is wrong? I don't think so!
Well, from the Online Etymology Dictionary:
-ize
suffix forming verbs, M.E. -isen, from O.Fr. -iser, from L.L. -izare, from Gk. -izein. English picked up the Fr. form, but partially reverted to the correct Gk. -z- spelling from late 16c. In Britain, despite the opposition (at least formerly) of OED, Encyclopaedia Britannica, Times of London, and Fowler, -ise remains dominant. Fowler thinks this is to avoid the difficulty of remembering the short list of common words not from Greek (advertise, devise, surprise) which must be spelled with an -s-.
Dagmar Cook wrote:
Do you 'advize' or 'advise'? Is the result 'advise' or 'advice'? Sorry, but the OED doesn't recognise (ize) advize...
advize = give bad advice - according to the Collaborative International Dictionary and www.thefreedictionary.com
Dagmar Cook wrote:
Perhaps we should move to phonetic spelling?
What other language could compete with English if it weren't for the spelling?
Robert
| | | | Dagmar Cook
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:51
English to Czech
+ ...
| Spellin! Now there's an interesting one! | May 4, 2007 |
Robert wrote
What other language could compete with English if it weren't for the spelling?
The Romany language sounds like a good contender - as far as I know there is no written language at all, only the spoken one, although, of course, I'll stand corrected on this point
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| -ize let you think of a spelling error, or ignorant? | May 8, 2007 |
Dagmar Cook wrote:
One of the main problems with traditional UK English spelling, is that the OED and others are now accepting alternative (americanised) versions of the word as part of our language. This does not make it correct, only that it is open to abuse.
Dagmar, when I get you right, you would prefer reading web content in UK English over US English?
That is exactly my point. I'm discussing with my partner, if it isn't somehow ignorant for native UK to have just a US English web online.
And, if so: Would it be ok, recognized and/or honoured, to change all these spelling issues, and different words you use? Or are there other things that needs to be done without the whole thing is just waste of time?
Thank you for your 2 pence...
| | | | | ise/ize/eyes | May 14, 2007 |
Dagmar Cook wrote:
(which should be pronounced with an unvoiced s or an unvoiced z ?) ?
[Edited at 2007-04-27 16:44]
I think these are the same sounds! /s/
Anyway, seems this is a case of [+voice] spreading from the vowel... common cross-linguistically...
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