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TCR list to be deleted / moved
Thread poster: xxxivw
xxxivw
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Apr 2, 2002

This is to let you all know that the TCR (Translator Client Review) list (a very useful recource for all of us in this business) is going to be deleted by its moderator from Yahoo Groups, the archives to be moved to a new server, and she (the moderator) will be accepting members for a yearly $12 fee. Existing members may only stay on the current list / move to the new list upon payment of this fee to the moderator (an individual, not a business). Since TCR\'s ad here on ProZ still says it\'s a free list, I thought you might wish to know that this is to change by the end of April, 2002.

As to the ownership right of the over 8000 messages, claimed by the moderator but posted free of charge by members of said list, it is currently being investigated by copyright lawyers of Yahoo.

I strongly recommend we transfer any and all useful TCR postings to ProZ\'s Blue Board (\"Agency ratings\") before said moderator appropriates these public domain archives.


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Laura Hastings  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:10
English to Spanish
+ ...
Message from moderator of TCR list Apr 2, 2002

Hi everyone,



Feel free to access the archives of the TCR List if you are a member of that list and transfer the data to the Blue Board. I am all for it!



Laura Hastings

Moderator

TCR List


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Monique Marquard
Local time: 02:10
Danish to Norwegian
+ ...
Two new free lists Apr 3, 2002

I\'ve heard that two new free lists for payment practices have been created after the decision to make TCR a paid list was made:



WorldPaymentPracticesFree

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WPPF/



and



Translation Agency Rating

http://www.coollist.com/group.cgi?l=trwiz





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xxxwilliamson
Local time: 02:10
Dutch to English
+ ...
TCR II or MSN-Communities Apr 3, 2002

Competition is often a healthy tool.

If somebody feels called upon to create a similar list on Yahoo with a slightly different or with the same name (I believe \"TCR\" is not copyrighted) on Yahoo or MSN free of charge, I wonder which list is going to attract the biggest public: the paying one or the one free of charge.


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xxxivw
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Response to moderator of TCR list Apr 3, 2002

As to your rather rude and abrupt private reply to my post,

\"Who are you? I need your email address.\"


You can continue contacting me the same way you just did, i.e. via ProZ mail, if absolutely necessary.


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Alan Johnson  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:10
German to English
Oh dear Apr 3, 2002

This has already been dragged through a hedge backwards on TCR. Not everything published on the internet is \"public domain\". Translators in particular should realise that. If and when Yahoo does start charging for such services, how long do you think the others will wait?

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Vincent MAELSTAF
Local time: 02:10
English to French
Value for money Apr 3, 2002

I think $12 is both affordable for the translator and a legitimate compensation for Laura if you consider the time and dedication it takes to moderate the list the way she does and still pursue her own career as a translator. As for the relevance of the info on the Blue Board, may be better to trust your money on horses...



Vincent







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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:10
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Don't make panic Apr 3, 2002

The TCR list is not to be deleted, but only to be moved to another host because of many inconvenience with Yahoo. Nobody is claiming the ownership on the messages and nobody ist prohibited to stay with the list. And I don\'t mean it is wrong to pay for this service. Even using ProZ is not free of charge - if you want to palce a bid you must pay for it - in money or with BrowniZ (if you are not a paying member). So I don\'t understand what the problem is - are we not able to afford 12 dollar per year? This cannot be. So don\'t make panic - the list will exist further.

And regarding the ownership of the messages - there were only 1600 members, but ProZ claims to have more than 30000. So why should more than 28000 be allowed to see the messages written by only 1600 people? If, than it is in the same way wrong as moving the list. The ProZ members are not automatically members of TCR, so they should not decide what has to happen with TCR.

That\'s my opinion.

Regards

J. Czopik


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 23:10
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
TCR and Blue Board are different Apr 3, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-04-02 20:34, ivw wrote:

(...snip...)

As to the ownership right of the over 8000 messages, claimed by the moderator but posted free of charge by members of said list, it is currently being investigated by copyright lawyers of Yahoo.

I strongly recommend we transfer any and all useful TCR postings to ProZ\'s Blue Board (\"Agency ratings\") before said moderator appropriates these public domain archives.





I have been following the discussions on the proposed new format in TCR and I will support it as I value the list.



To contribute to the Blue Board you MUST have worked for that particular agency/oursourcer. This is the rule. Simple.

No one can just scan the information contained in TCR and just copy it, under its name on the Blue Board unless you are the original contributor to the TCR entry.

This is how the Blue Board has been intended and it is clearly stated in the rules for its use.



I consider the two resources both useful, in a different way.

The Blue Board has been set-up to record the translators\' willingness to work AGAIN for a particular agency (i.e. you must have worked already for them and report your own good/bad experience), TCR is more open to describing facts and personal experiences.



Finally, I understand that TCR\'s moderator is not claiming \"ownership\" of the postings. She is considering transferring the activities of the list elsewhere and the participants are free to follow in the new format or not.



Also, all interested translators are asked to contribute to the moderator\'s time and dedication with a yearly fee (in my opinion very modest and affordable).



Laura is claiming ownership of the time that she will dedicate to the list activities in the future, after donating so much in the past.



Gianfranco





[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-03 12:19 ]

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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 20:10
SITE FOUNDER
Right, Gianfranco Apr 3, 2002

If you have worked for an agency in the past, you are invited to the Blue Board (click on \'agency ratings\' in the menu), to rate your willingness to work for that agency again.



However, while there may be some overlap between the purposes of the Blue Board and the purposes of the TCR list, they are by no means the same. Neither are they competitive. General discussion is not possible on the Blue Board (and we have no intention of making it possible), and rating is not facilitated on TCR.



My understanding is that the creator of the TCR service (and ProZ.com platinum member), Laura Hastings, will be moving the whole list, with its archives, to a new location due to changes of policy at YahooGroups. This is a sensible move, given the uncertainties at YahooGroups (and trashy ads!).



I also understand that Laura will be instituting some sort of a fee structure. Given comments I have read on TCR, I also see signs of flexibility in that fee structure.



Of course, anyone can start a new TCR-type list and not charge. But it will take a year or two for a new service to grow to the point of usefulness, and by that time, the volunteer spirit of the creators of the new list may be wearing thin, putting the new list in the same position TCR is in now.



Laura should be lauded for creating a valuable service that was sorely needed in our industry. Why not work with her to give TCR a structure and income that will allow it to last and become even more useful?


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Dyran Altenburg  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 20:10
English to Spanish
+ ...
About Payment Practices Lists Apr 3, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-04-03 13:01, Henry wrote:

If you have worked for an agency in the past, you are invited to the Blue Board (click on \'agency ratings\' in the menu), to rate your willingness to work for that agency again.





Unfortunately, some people who have not worked for an agency have rated it anyway. Could it be possible to remove those ratings as well as the ones created as \"test\"?



Quote:


Of course, anyone can start a new TCR-type list and not charge. But it will take a year or two for a new service to grow to the point of usefulness, and by that time, the volunteer spirit of the creators of the new list may be wearing thin, putting the new list in the same position TCR is in now.





A free Payment Practices list already exists (actually, it predates TCR). There\'s no need to re-invent the wheel.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pp_dist/

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-03 14:14 ]

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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 20:10
SITE FOUNDER
link incorrect Apr 3, 2002

Quote:


Dyran said:



A free Payment Practices list already exists (actually, it predates TCR). There\'s no need to re-invent the wheel.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pp_dist/







Actually, if you are new to Payment Practices, it seems you would need to start at:



http://www.trwenterprises.com/payment_practices.htm



There is a detailed explanation of their approach on the site.

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Laura Hastings  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:10
English to Spanish
+ ...
Answer to Mrs. Grundy Apr 4, 2002

Well, yes, Mrs. Grundy (formerly \"ivw\"), I am a straight-forward person. I am WYSIWYG all the way.



However, I find it strange that a professional translator would hide behind anonymity instead of being proud of who he/she is and sharing all contact information with fellow professionals and clients.



Just a bit strange for a business-person, I think.



Laura


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xxxivw
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Dear Jerzy, Apr 5, 2002

Allow me to disagree:



> The TCR list is not to be deleted



I have proof (from Ms Hastings) that this is exactly what\'s planned. Quote:

\"The TCR list will migrate to a private service and I will delete this group on Yahoo.\"




> Nobody is claiming the ownership on the

> messages and nobody is prohibited to stay

> with the list.



See above + see the polls\' options...



> And I don\'t mean it is wrong to pay for

> this service.



I\'ve never said it\'s wrong to pay, either!

I am happy to help her out, especially when she is in such a desperate situation (see her message, January 17) that she can barely pay her electricity bills! But I\'m sorry: donation is one thing, free services are another. I am NOT paying for something that\'s public domain.



> So I don\'t understand what the problem is



Simple: WE, list members, have put together the invaluable database. OUR ratings, information, previous experience shared with our community make this list what it is now. When all this is about to be taken away from US unless we pay a certain individual, I\'m sorry, but I have to question her rights to do so.



> are we not able to afford 12 dollar per

> year?



Yes, thank goodness we are. This issue has never been about the lousy $12. It\'s the principles.



> And regarding the ownership of the

> messages - there were only 1600 members



There are currently 1650+ members, and a mere 158 have voted in favor of the move / payment. And you call it a vast majority?



> The ProZ members are not automatically

> members of TCR, so they should not decide

> what has to happen with TCR.



Very true. I was addressing ProZ member that are ALSO members of TCR.


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xxxivw
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Dear Gianfranco: Apr 5, 2002

> To contribute to the Blue Board you MUST

> have worked for that particular

> agency/oursourcer. This is the rule.

> Simple.

> No one can just scan the information

> contained in TCR and just copy it, under

> its name on the Blue Board unless you are

> the original contributor to the TCR entry.



Of course! I was asking the original contributors to transfer their input here.



As a side note: no one is checked on TCR if the have actually worked for the agency in question. And I would never question the reliability of my colleagues. Should I?...



> I understand that TCR\'s moderator is not

> claiming \"ownership\" of the postings.



Really? Then how do you interpret remarks such as,
\"I created

it and have moderated it as well since the beginning. My name has been associated with the TCR list in many places, therefore, there can only be one TCR list. The TCR list will migrate to a private service and I will delete this group on Yahoo.\"


To me, these are the words of someone who believe they own it..



> She is considering transferring the

> activities of the list elsewhere and the

> participants are free to follow in the new

> format or not.



\"Free\" to follow?

MIGRATION OF THE LIST MEMBERS: [...] Those of you who have paid the 10.00 or 12.00 fee, those who have made a donation in the past year, will be subscribed [...]\"


One could argue that 12 bucks a year is close to nothing. But when it comes to a list of over 1600 members....


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