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What are the alternatives to the TCR list?
Thread poster: Nadjezda Heymans
Nadjezda Heymans
Local time: 10:20
English to Dutch
+ ...
May 21, 2002

I would like to know whether there is a good alternative for the TCR-list to be found on the Internet. The annual 12US$ required for subscription are not my main concern, I believe that many translators will all in all opt for any free service on the Internet. If there are not enough subscribers to the TCR-list, there will not be such huge response there used to be when the list was accessible for everybody.

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Maria Asis  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 10:20
Member (2002)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Transpayment at Topica May 21, 2002

Hi!



You can subscribe at Transpayment at www.topica.com.



Try there, the same info is provided.





Ma. José





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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:20
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Spreading false informations about TCR May 21, 2002

You are absolutly wrong. TCR is a living list - and there are enough members now.

So try to subscribe to both - TCR and TransPayment. The only difference you will see is, that TransPayment is hosted by Topica, which is a free internet service - as for now. TCR was hosted on Yahoo, but their service was not good enough to host such a list and for this case the list has been moved to a private server. If you cannot pay, so contact Laura Hastings, and she will surely give you a possibility to join the list. We are 836 mebers now, and most of them are very active, so that all queries are answered quickly. And this is a very important factor, as if you will be asked from somebody to do a translation for him you cannot afford to wait a couple of days to get informations about his payment practices, because you must give him your offer quite quickly. And this is one of the reasons, why a private server works much better as any free internet service - there is no spam there and the emails are send immediately.



And you will see, very soon there will be a discussion here, that it was illegible to move TCR to a private server and so on...



So you see, the list is not small at all.



King regards

Jerzy



[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-21 19:04 ]


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Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 10:20
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
A good list May 21, 2002

Look, even if I do not agree with what has happened with TCR (not for financial reasons, I paid immediately) it is still a good list. There is a pleasant mixture of information with chat, you get to know people. And it is seldom going overboard.

Why not subscribe to other lists as well?

They are free. You soon will be able to judge.

Greetings

Maya



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John Kinory
Local time: 09:20
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Methinks you protest too much May 21, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-05-21 18:18, JCzopik wrote:



Spreading false informations about TCR

---------------------------------

You are absolutly wrong. TCR is a living list - and there are enough members now.

So try to subscribe to both - TCR and TransPayment. The only difference you will see is, that TransPayment is hosted by Topica, which is a free internet service - as for now. TCR was hosted on Yahoo, but their service was not good enough to host such a list and for this case the list has been moved to a private server. If you cannot pay, so contact Laura Hastings, and she will surely give you a possibility to join the list. We are 836 mebers now, and most of them are very active, so that all queries are answered quickly. And this is a very important factor, as if you will be asked from somebody to do a translation for him you cannot afford to wait a couple of days to get informations about his payment practices, because you must give him your offer quite quickly. And this is one of the reasons, why a private server works much better as any free internet service - there is no spam there and the emails are send immediately.



And you will see, very soon there will be a discussion here, that it was illegible to move TCR to a private server and so on...



So you see, the list is not small at all.





You can judge the quality of TCR by the hysterical nature of this reply. \'Spreading false information\': really? And who exactly is doing that? I can\'t see any Fifth Column above your reply, spreading enemy propaganda. But when a list has something to hide, you get these OTT denials and accusations (get your retaliation in first, right, Jerzy?).



Interesting that you know the precise number of TCR members. Some of Laura\'s \'loyal\' members regularly update me on what is happening there; apparently, this number is a closely guarded secret. Again, one could wonder just WHY it is such a secret.



As to the illegality (is that what you meant?) or otherwise: many former members provided free information to the old list. Laura Hastings removed this information to another server, and started charging a fee for access to it. Those who complained politely, received abusive messages and/or were expelled (I am by no means the only one). You\'ll have to judge for yourself whether making money out of information provided free by those expelled members is moral and/or legal.



_________________



[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-22 23:12 ]

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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 10:20
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...

MODERATOR
Making money out of TCR???? May 22, 2002

Dear John Kinory,



You venture to say:

\"You\'ll have to judge for yourself whether making money out of information provided free by those expelled members is moral and/or legal.\"



Has it never struck you that the organising a list like TCR requires intellectual effort and TIME?

There is no reason why that effort and time should be given for free.

The \'free\' contributions of translators get paid for by the excellent service the list provides, that\'s why you and I contribute gladly.

I suggest you start your own list, giving out the information you so seem to despise, for free.



As for expulsion reasons I\'m sure many know or can guess why some are expelled.





[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-22 03:24 ]

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-22 03:28 ]


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John Kinory
Local time: 09:20
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Transpayment May 22, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-05-21 16:54, mjose wrote:

You can subscribe at Transpayment at www.topica.com.





This list has some good features. Sadly, I\'ve seen a lot of flaming both on it and on the associated chat list.
[addsig]

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John Kinory
Local time: 09:20
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Yes, that's what I said May 22, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-05-22 03:21, MatsWiman wrote:

You venture to say: \"You\'ll have to judge for yourself whether making money out of information provided free by those expelled members is moral and/or legal.\"



Has it never struck you that the organising a list like TCR requires intellectual effort and TIME? There is no reason why that effort and time should be given for free. The \'free\' contributions of translators get paid for by the excellent service the list provides, that\'s why you and I contribute gladly.

I suggest you start your own list, giving out the information you so seem to despise, for free.



As for expulsion reasons I\'m sure many know or can guess why some are expelled.





I didn\'t VENTURE to say so. I did say so, and it\'s all verifiable facts (unlike your own innuendos, for example; the expulsions arose from members objecting to rule by dictat, and these objections were raised politely, in contrast to the vile abuse heaped on them as a result, closely followed by dissing).



Thank you for your kind suggestion. I\'ll start my own list if and when I choose to, Mr Wiman. And please read (and/or write) more carefully. I do not despise the information, ad have never said or implied so. What I despise is taking the information that was provided on the CLEAR UNDERSTANDING that it\'s a free list, and a few months down the line suddenly decreeing that it\'s no longer free and one individual is \'entitled\' to grab it and charge for it. You may consider it legal and moral; that\'s a reflection on you.
[addsig]

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Laura Hastings  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:20
English to Spanish
+ ...
Once again, CORRECTION and a legal note... May 22, 2002

Correction:



I did not remove the archive from Yahoo\'s server. It is still there and as always, it is available for PRESENT members of the TCR List.



And as for \'legal and moral\' concerns, here\'s the legal stance:



To: Stan Morris [mailto:smmorris@rmi.net]

Date: May 1, 2002

From: xxxxxx

Re: GigaLaw.com article





At 12:21 AM 5/17/02 xxx, you wrote:

>Dear Mr. Morris,

>

>I have read your articles about Internet privacy issues with much interest

>on Giglaw.

>

>I am the moderator of a closed list for translators, where the archives of

>the list is for members only, and where membership requires my approval. The

>list deals with the payment practices of translation agencies.

>

>An interesting discussion has now arisen between fellow translators:

>

>Suppose a member of the list \"lifts\" the entire archive and publishes it

>as a publicly accessible database on the Internet. Would the individuals

>that wrote the emails in the archives have any legal remedy to hinder

>this - ie. could they claim violation of privacy, breach of copyright or demand that the

>person who \"took\" the information should ask each and every member of the

>list for approval to release his/her information (originally posted in a

>closed forum).

>

>I cannot find any information about the \"ownership\" of emails in closed

>groups on the Internet - but maybe you have come across something in your

>work or research?

>

>I am sure, that this is a problem that will interest a lot of moderators

all

>over the world.

>

>Kind regards

>

>

>xxxxxx







Dear xxxxx:





I reviewed some of the files that I have, prior to responding. I was under

the general impression, which I think is correct, that since your list is a

moderated one, then the list moderator or owner controls who gets access to

the list and who does not , much like a Multi-User Domain or a MUD, Object

Oriented. MUD\'s and MOO\'s are strictly controlled by the owner, even to

the point of expelling participants from the games if people don\'t observe

the rules. I think privacy and copyright issues do come into your favor.

I also checked the archives of the Gigalaw Discussion list and didn\'t find

specific answers, (although that may mean I simply didn\'t find it).. Since

my primary emphasis was 1st Amendment issues, I would suggest that you pose

your questions to that list, it\'s relatively unrestricted. There are people

who are expert in each of the fields and not necessarily those on the

Editorial Board. Good luck, I\'ll look for your question on the list.



Stan Morris, Lawyer

136 W. First St.

P.O.Box 879

Cortez, CO 81321

970.565.3771 (voice)

979.565.2739 (fax)

==================================================

FWIW. Guys, the deed is done. The TCR List CONTINUES to be a great list, with lots of very active members who are respected professionals.



The pace of the list is as brisk as ever. I have posted over 25 messages today and none were off-topic. All were in response to queries on agencies.



We have approximately 8 - 10 persons requesting subscription to the list daily.



So, sorry, the naysayers were wrong. Nothing but good has come from the move.



Laura

Moderator

TCR List


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John Kinory
Local time: 09:20
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Exactly! May 22, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-05-22 19:32, lhastings wrote:

I did not remove the archive from Yahoo\'s server. It is still there and as always, it is available for PRESENT members of the TCR List.

{snip}

Laura

Moderator

TCR List





You are condemned from your own mouth. Some of that information was provided free of charge by members who were later expelled by you arbitrarily, because they queried your dictatorial methods. So now: (a) they have no access to the information they themselves provided for free; (b) you charge other members for access to that information!



So yes, I should say there are some moral and legal issues involved here.





[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-28 11:07 ]

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Laura Hastings  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:20
English to Spanish
+ ...
I guess you didn't read far enough... May 23, 2002

What part of this quote from the lawyer do you not understand, John???



... that since your list is a moderated one, then the list moderator or owner controls who gets access to the list and who does not...



Get it? The MODERATOR or OWNER (in other words, in this case, ME) controls who gets access...



Now do you get it?



This is the legal issue you keep making reference to. This is the answer. I have the say and I own the archive.



Of course, I see you doing this all the time, just ignore what you don\'t want to accept.



How credible do you think you are acting that way?



Laura

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-23 05:55 ]


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 10:20
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...

MODERATOR
What is free? May 23, 2002

Dear John Kinory,



You as native expert English-speaking person ought to know that the word \'free\' has several meanings.

In the TCR case, \'free\' definitely does not mean and has never meant that the list belongs to the contributors. Simple grown-up logic prescribes the understanding that the organiser of the service is the owner of the accumulated information.

One does not have to be a professor at Law or English-speaking to grasp this simple fact.

If you aren\'t able to understand that, you should at least pay some respect to what an expert laywer has to say on the matter.


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:20
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Answer to John May 23, 2002

Dear John,

I majorly disagree with what you wrote.



Quote:

\"You can judge the quality of TCR by the hysterical nature of this reply. \'Spreading false information\': really? And who exactly is doing that? I can\'t see any Fifth Column above your reply, spreading enemy propaganda. But when a list has something to hide, you get these OTT denials and accusations (get your retaliation in first, right, Jerzy?).



Interesting that you know the precise number of TCR members. Some of Laura\'s \'loyal\' members regularly update me on what is happening there; apparently, this number is a closely guarded secret. Again, one could wonder just WHY it is such a secret.



As to the illegality (is that what you meant?) or otherwise: many former members provided free information to the old list. Laura Hastings removed this information to another server, and started charging a fee for access to it. Those who complained politely, received abusive messages and/or were expelled (I am by no means the only one). You\'ll have to judge for yourself whether making money out of information provided free by those expelled members is moral and/or legal.\"

Unquote



As you see, we have again a discussion about TCR, and thats exactly what I meant. It is enough, that somebody points out, that everything is going allright on TCR and immediately there are some persons, who state something else. The list has nothing to hide. It is usual, that every mailing list is protected with a password, this just simply to let only those people in, who joined the list. Not because there is something to hide - it´s just as a party. Only the invited people come in. Why should it be different with TCR?



You wonde wha I do know the exact member number? It is quite simple - I asked Laura for it. Again, nothing to hide, no secrets or something like that. You only need to ask, so if you were not informed until now is because you or someone else didn´t ask for it.



Concerning the illegality of taking archives with - well, the list was moderated the whole time. Laura was in right to post a message or not to do so. Everybody knew it. She was legible to to open or close the archives. On other lists this can happen every time - if the moderator means he/she does not want to run the particular list, then he/she can close the list and there is nothing you can do against.

Laura has only moved the list, the archives are still there where they were, and any listmember has a full access to them.



I think your only problem is, that for any reasons, which do not concern me in any way, you are no more member of this list. I cannot understand why so many people protested on ProZ against paing a donation (or say better: charge) to Laura, but so few did this elswhere? Even if we call this 12$ charge or fee - it is a very small amount per year as a kind of insurance against not paying customers. And I appreciate it realy, that Laura is runnig the list further.

I tried to joing TransPayment, but this does not work. I´m a member of various mailinglists, but the TransPayment is the only one I cannot gain access to. And it is the only one hosted by Topica - perhaps this is the reason.



Please apologize my bad english.



Kind regards

Jerzy

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-23 13:58 ]


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John Kinory
Local time: 09:20
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Thank you kindly, Master May 23, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-05-23 10:39, MatsWiman wrote:

Simple grown-up logic prescribes the understanding that the organiser of the service is the owner of the accumulated information.

One does not have to be a professor at Law or English-speaking to grasp this simple fact.

If you aren\'t able to understand that, you should at least pay some respect to what an expert laywer has to say on the matter.





I am really honoured - a mere slip of a child - to receive such words of grown-up wisdom from such an authoritative source; all the more so as I can\'t, on my own and without your help, follow simple logic and am unable to understand such obvious facts ...



Sadly, however, I disagree with your logic. The author of the information is always deemed to be its owner, unless it has changed hands for a consideration (please do check copyright and contract law).



Furthermore, this \'expert lawyer\' was very indefinite, saying:



>>> so checked the archives of the Gigalaw Discussion list and didn\'t find specific answers, (although that may mean I simply didn\'t find it).. Since my primary emphasis was 1st Amendment issues, I would suggest that you pose your questions to that list, it\'s relatively unrestricted. There are people who are expert in each of the fields and not necessarily those on the Editorial Board. Good luck, I\'ll look for your question on the list.

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xxxidibaba
Local time: 10:20
English
correction to the correction Jun 4, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-05-22 19:32, lhastings wrote:

Correction:

I did not remove the archive from Yahoo\'s server. It is still there and as always, it is available for PRESENT members of the TCR List.





Sadly, this is not true..

But since this comes from LH, no surprise.

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