| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Off topic: Hindi neden "turkey" Thread poster: lagunali
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| Oxford English Dictionary'den | Oct 25, 2004 |
Evet, söz verdiğim gibi OED'den baktırttım. Toplam referanslar 16 sayfa tuttu; insaf edip 4 sayfaya sığacak şekilde özetledim. Umarım forumda mesaj uzunluğu kısıtlaması varsa bu uzunluk sorun yaratmadan görüntülenir.
Referansları aşağıda 3 gruba ayırdım. İlk grupta ülkenin, ikinci grupta kuşun, üçüncü grupta da deyimlerin incelendiğini göreceksiniz. Özetle, 1300'lerde Türkiye için İngilizcede "Turkey" gibi sözler kullanılmaya başlanmış, hindi ... See more Evet, söz verdiğim gibi OED'den baktırttım. Toplam referanslar 16 sayfa tuttu; insaf edip 4 sayfaya sığacak şekilde özetledim. Umarım forumda mesaj uzunluğu kısıtlaması varsa bu uzunluk sorun yaratmadan görüntülenir.
Referansları aşağıda 3 gruba ayırdım. İlk grupta ülkenin, ikinci grupta kuşun, üçüncü grupta da deyimlerin incelendiğini göreceksiniz. Özetle, 1300'lerde Türkiye için İngilizcede "Turkey" gibi sözler kullanılmaya başlanmış, hindi Batıda keşfedilince yanlış köklendirmeden ötürü "turkey" denmiş, çok çok sonra da buradaki tartışmaya yol açan deyimler türemiş. Deyimler türetilirken ülkeye gönderme yapıldığı üzerine bir delil göremedim (ama tabii "aksi ispatlanmadıkça" şeklinde, Fransız hukuk sistemini çağrıştıran bir "presumed guilty until proven otherwise" tutumu varsa, o zaman hiçbir şey ispatlanamaz). Halka gönderme derseniz bir tanesinde var.
Dikkat çeken bir tanım, turkey=Türk, İrlandalı göçmenler için kullanılan bir takma isim olabilmiş! Bu bence ülke ötesi bir yöne işaret ediyor, her ne kadar bazı eski metinlerde hindi büyük harfle yazılsa da (göreceksiniz ki mesela "is" dahi büyük harfle karşınıza çıkabiliyor, yani imla oturmuş değil). Elbette sonuçta ortaya tatsız bir özdeşleşme çıkıyor ama benim yorumum bunda niyet değil bilgisizlik ve sallapatiliğin rol oynadığı. "Turkey" değil ama "Turk" lafıyla ilgili birçok terimde bizi ilgilendiren kötü niyet kesin var, o ayrı bir konu, bkz. aşağıda.
Aldı sazı eline OED bakalım ne söyledi:
1. Ulke olarak Turkey:
Turkey. Also 5 torke, 6-7 Turkie, 6-8 Turky, (5-7 Turkye, 6 torkey, Turquey, Turkeye, 7 Tyrkye). [= F. Turquie, med.L. Turchia, Turquia, f. Turc, Turc-us, TURK n.1: cf. Germ n-us, Germ nia, Germany; Indus, India.]
1. The land of the Turks, ‘Turkey in Asia’ and ‘Turkey in Europe’; formerly sometimes Turkestan or Tartary.
c1369 CHAUCER Dethe Blaunche 1026 Ne sende men in-to Walakye,..To Alisaundre, ne in-to Turkye. c1485 Digby Myst. (1882) III. 1435 er is e lond of torke. 1500-20 DUNBAR Poems xxxiii. 61 A fedrem on he tuke..in Turky for to fle. 1570 LEVINS Manip. 98/45 Turkie, Tartaria. 1626 BACON Sylva §49 Rice is in Turky..most fed upon. 1719 W. WOOD Surv. Trade 180 The Turkey Company..have Factories and Houses in Turkey. 1892 Chamb. Encycl. X. 329 Turkey or the Ottoman Empire comprises the wide but heterogeneous territories really or nominally subject to the Osmânlî sultan, in Europe, Asia, and Africa.
2. Kuş olarak turkey:
Turkicock(e. [f. TURKEY1 + COCK n.1 In the 16th c. synonymous with Guinea-cock or Guinea-fowl, an African bird known to the ancients (the [...] of Aristotle, meleagris of Varro and Pliny), the American bird being at first identified with or treated as a species of this. The African bird is believed to have been so called as originally imported through the Turkish dominions; it was called Guinea-fowl when brought by the Portuguese from Guinea in West Africa. After the two birds were distinguished and the names differentiated, turkey was erroneously retained for the American bird, instead of the African. From the same imperfect knowledge and confusion Meleagris, the ancient name of the African fowl, was unfortunately adopted by Linnæus as the generic name of the American bird.]
turkey. [1552-1601: see TURKEY-COCK 2, TURKEY-HEN 1.] 1655 MOUFET & BENNET Health's Improv. (1746) 166 They were first brought from Numidia into Turky, and thence to Europe, whereupon they were called Turkies.
1555 in Dugdale Orig. Jurid. xlviii. (1666) 135 Turkies 2. rated at 4s. a piece..00. 08. 00. 1573 TUSSER Husb. (1878) 89 Runciuall pease..more tender and greater they wex, If peacock and turkey leaue iobbing their bex. 1596 SHAKES. 1 Hen. IV, II. i. 29 The Turkies in my Pannier are quite starued. 1616 CAPT. SMITH Descr. New Eng. 29 Teale, Meawes, Guls, Turkies, Diue-doppers. 1634 W. WOOD New Eng. Prosp. (1865) 32 The Turkey is a very large Bird, of a blacke colour, yet white in flesh. 1643 BAKER Chron. (1660) 317 About [1524], it happened that divers things were newly brought into England, whereupon this Rhyme was made: ‘Turkeys, Carps, Hoppes, Piccarell, and Beer, Came into England all in one year’. 1698 FRYER Acc. E. India & P. 116 Others [Pigeons] walked on the Ground, with their Breasts bearing out, and the Feathers of their Tails spreading like Turkies. a1705 PRIOR Ladle 74 Fat Turkeys gobbling at the Door. 1766 PENNANT Zool. (1768) I. 213 The Turky was unknown to the antient naturalists, and even to the old world before the discovery of America. 1805 SOUTHEY Madoc II. xi, The loud turkey's voice Is heralding the dawn. 1860 TYLOR Anahuac ix. (1861) 228 The turkey, which was introduced into Europe from Mexico, was called ‘huexolotl’ from the gobbling noise it makes. 1886 RUSKIN Præterita I. iv. 115 Civilities at Christmas, in the way of turkeys and boxes of raisins.
1613 PURCHAS Pilgrimage (1614) 762 They haue Eagles, Haukes, wilde Turkeys and other Fowle. 1624 CAPT. SMITH Virginia II. 27 Wild Turkies are as bigge as our tame. 1707 MORTIMER Husb. (1721) I. 260, I knew a Gentleman that had a Hen-Turkey of the wild kind from Virginia; of which, and an English Cock, he raised a very fine Breed. 1830 ‘B. MOUBRAY’ Domest. Poultry x. (ed. 6) 81 There is a sameness of colour in the wild turkey, and the original stock seems to have been black, domestication generally inducing a variety of colours. 1849 D. J. BROWNE Amer. Poultry Yd. (1855) 138 Two species only are known to naturalists, namely, the common wild turkey, (Meleagris gallopavo,) of North America, the origin of our domestic stock, and the Honduras turkey, (M. ocellata).
3. Deyimlerde turkey:
U.S. and Canada. Allusively, in colloquial or dialect phrases, etc.
to say or talk turkey, to talk agreeably or affably, to say pleasant things; now usu. (in this sense also to talk cold turkey) to speak frankly and without reserve; to talk hard facts, get down to business; (no longer restricted to N. Amer.); to talk turkey, to use high-flown language; hence absol. language of this character; not to say (pea-) turkey, to say nothing at all, ‘not to say a word’ (about something); to walk turkey, to strut or swagger; of a ship, to pitch and roll. (See Bartlett Dict. Amer., and Thornton American Glossary.)
1824 Little Bit of Tid-Re-I II. 109 So that, all things considered, I hope neither the Indian, whom the Yankey could not cheat in the division of their game (a turkey and a buzzard,)..will accuse me of not talking Turkey to them in this article. 1846 J. W. ABERT in Congress Documents XXX. 502 The Indian replied, ‘You never once said turkey to me’. 1851 Adv. Capt. Suggs 122 (Thornton) He won't get a chance to say turkey to a good lookin gall to-day. a1860 MCCLINTOCK Beedle's Marriage (Bartlett), I was plaguy apt to talk turkey always when I got sociable, if it was only out of politeness. 1888 San Francisco Weekly Examiner 22 Mar. (Farmer Amer.), The north wind commenced to make the Yaquina walk turkey, standing her up on either end alternately. 1888 Washington Critic (ibid.), ‘What..does locum tenens mean, Tim?’.. ‘Why, that's turkey for pro tem., of course’. 1903 Dialect Notes II. 333 Talk turkey, v.phr., to talk plainly: ‘I'm going to talk turkey with him and see if I can't get him to mend his ways.’ 1909 Ibid. (U.S.) III. 356 (Thornton) She never said pea-turkey to me about it. 1919 E. HOUGH Sagebrusher xiv. 125 Do you know when he got rattled he began to talk Dutch to me? Well, I talked turkey to him. 1928 Daily Express 4 Jan. 11/5 She talked cold turkey about sex. ‘Cold turkey’ means plain truth in America. 1939 A. HUXLEY After Many a Summer II. x. 279 ‘I'll make it worth your while,’ he said. ‘You can have anything you care to ask for.’.. ‘Ah,’ said Dr. Obispo, ‘now you're talking turkey.’ 1946 E. HODGINS Mr. Blandings builds his Dream House (1947) xv. 196 The boss painter..wanted to talk turkey about..the final colours. 1967 A. CHRISTIE Endless Night ix. 67 Send for a high powered lawyer and tell him you're willing to talk turkey. Then he fixes..the amount of alimony. 1982 T. BERGER Reinhart's Women xix. 270 Maybe I'll be in a position to talk turkey about an arrangement that would work out for us both.
cold turkey: a method of treating drug addicts by sudden and complete withdrawal of the drug, instead of by a gradual process. Also attrib. and as advb. phr.; also transf. Hence cold-turkey vb. trans., to cure of drug addiction by ‘cold turkey’ treatment. slang (orig. N. Amer.).
1921 Daily Colonist (Victoria, B.C.) 13 Oct. 15/6 Perhaps the most pitiful figures who have appeared before Dr. Carleton Simon..are those who voluntarily surrender themselves. When they go before him, they [sc. drug addicts] are given what is called the ‘cold turkey’ treatment. 1936 Amer. Speech XI. 120/1 Cold turkey, treatment of addicts in institutions where they are taken off drugs suddenly without the ‘tapering off’ which the addict always desires. 1941 W. C. HANDY Father of Blues xviii. 243 We went on ‘cold turkey’ that morning without a rehearsal. 1951 N.Y. Times 27 June 19 She tried it ‘cold turkey’ once, which she explained meant merely stopping completely, without any attendant medication. 1960 Times Lit. Suppl. 16 Sept. 589/4 The Scene is written by a junkie..who was snitched by a flip, busted by the nailers and after a stretch in the pen cold turkeyed..that is to say, was once a dope addict; he was arrested and..managed to break himself of his addiction. 1962 ‘K. ORVIS’ Damned & Destroyed xi. 72, I made one cold~turkey cure and it near killed me. 1976 S. GEORGE Fatal Shadows 154 She took a cold turkey, no methedrine, no sedatives, nothing, just off.
plain turkey, scrub turkey: humorous names for swagmen who haunt, respectively, the Australian plains and the bush [perhaps with partial allusion to the ‘turkey’ (sense 5 below) which they carry]. Austral. slang.
1955 A. MARSHALL I can jump Puddles 152 Father..was familiar with the ways of swagmen... The bearded men who kept to the bush he called ‘Scrub Turkeys’ and those who came down from the plains he called ‘Plain Turkeys’. 1973 F. HUELIN Keep Moving 178 Scrub Turkey, bagman who has gone Bush. Usually slightly mental or eccentric.
U.S. slang. a. An inferior or unsuccessful cinematographic or theatrical production, a flop; hence, anything disappointing or of little value.
1927 Vanity Fair (N.Y.) XXIX. 132/3 ‘A turkey’ is a third rate production. 1939 G. MARX Let. 27 Oct. (1967) 21 The boys at the studio have lined up another turkey for us... I saw the present one the other day and didn't care much for it. 1941 J. M. CAIN Mildred Pierce 176 The beach..was studded with rocks and was therefore unsuitable to swimming. For all ordinary purposes it was simply a turkey. 1962 Movie June 18/1 With The Four Horsemen, Minnelli was once more landed with a turkey, an old one, too. 1977 H. FAST Immigrants III. 201 ‘Have you ever thought of selling the place?’ Jake asked... ‘Oh? And who the hell would buy this turkey?’
b. = TURK n.1 4b; spec. an Irish immigrant in the U.S.
1932 J. T. FARRELL Young Lonigan i. 31 Dooley was one comical turkey, funnier than anything you'd find in real life.
[Not: Bu 4b tanımı neymiş diye baktım. Turk sözcüğünün olumlu ve genelde olumsuz sayfalarca tanımı var, ama 4b Türklerden hareketle sadece İrlandalıları tanımlıyor; tam olarak şöyle yazıyor: A person of Irish birth or descent. slang (usu. depreciatory). Chiefly U.S. Şurası var ki, turkey ile olmasa bile Turk ile ilgili bu kadar çok olumsuz şey türetilmiş, asıl şikayet bu konuda olmalı, hindi konusunda değil.]
c. A stupid, slow, inept, or otherwise worthless person.
1951 in Wentworth & Flexner Dict. Amer. Slang (1960) 556/2 So, if you got a collector [of internal revenue] through the civil service system who was a real turkey, you'd be stuck with that turkey practically until he died. 1969 C. BURKE God is Beautiful, Man (1970) 105 You better get real strong like so that you won't be a turkey. 1978 Time 3 July 13/3 ‘Come on, you turkeys! Let's speed this show up!’ cries an irreverent observer. 1984 Tampa (Florida) Tribune 5 Apr. 4D/3, I decided I had had enough of that turkey.
[Edited at 2004-10-25 20:45]
[Edited at 2004-10-25 20:50]
[Edited at 2004-10-25 20:52] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Özden Arıkan 
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| Eline sağlık, Nefise, | Oct 31, 2004 |
çok hoş bir konu açmışsın. Senin de eline sağlık, Aziz. Bütün herkese de teşekkürler tabii, çok keyifle okudum, böyle daha çok forum yapalım
Aziz'in de dediği gibi henüz bizim Osmanlı atalarımız bu adı kullanmazken, hatta kullanmaktan dehşetle imtina ederlerken, Batı'da ülkemize (daha doğrusu sadece bugünkü TC sınırları içinde kalan topraklara değil, Osmanlı tebaı olan her yere... See more çok hoş bir konu açmışsın. Senin de eline sağlık, Aziz. Bütün herkese de teşekkürler tabii, çok keyifle okudum, böyle daha çok forum yapalım
Aziz'in de dediği gibi henüz bizim Osmanlı atalarımız bu adı kullanmazken, hatta kullanmaktan dehşetle imtina ederlerken, Batı'da ülkemize (daha doğrusu sadece bugünkü TC sınırları içinde kalan topraklara değil, Osmanlı tebaı olan her yere) Türkiye ve yine bütün Osmanlı tebaına da Türk dendiği biliniyor. Hatta Arjantin'in eski devlet başkanı vardı, kocaman favorili adam, unuttum adını, Arap kökenliydi ama "El Turco" lakabıyla biliniyordu. Bunun sebebi, atalarının eskiden Osmanlı'ya bağlı Arap topraklarından oraya yerleşmiş olması. Nitekim yakın zamanda da, birkaç senedir İspanya'da yaşayan bir arkadaşımdan, İspanyollar'ın -muhtemelen Amerika kıtasındaki İspanyolca konuşur nüfusun da- hâlâ Arap kökenlilere "Türk" adını verdiğini öğrendim. (E pek hoşuma gitmedi tabii )
Asıl şunu söylemek için yazmaya başlamıştım, yine uzattım lafı: "Kızılderili" sözünü bizler hiçbir ırkçı artniyet yüklemeden kullandık uzun süre belki ama özünde ırkçı bir laf gerçekten (nitekim PC Türkçe literatürde galiba "Amerika Yerlisi" deniyor artık). Fakat ben 1940'larda falan Sevim Belli tarafından Türkçe'ye çevrilmiş bir kitapta (adını hatırlamam mümkün değil) "Hintliler" kullanıldığını gördüm. Hatta -tam acemi çevirmen densizliğiyle- o zamanlar bir arkadaşa, "Yahu kadın Kızılderili'yi Hintli diye çevirmiş, ne ayıp!" gibi aptalca bir laf ettiğimi hatırlıyorum. O da bana, herhalde Türkçe'de de bir zamanlar, Batı dillerinden alarak "Hintli" dendiğini ve "Kızılderili" sözünün büyük ihtimalle Tommiks-Teksas literatürü aracılığıyla dilimize girdiğini söylemişti. Doğrusu bu açıklama çok mantıklı geldi bana o zaman, ama elimde doğrulayacak bir şey yok. Araştıracağım, merak ettim. O kitap da Ankara'da, babamın kütüphanesinde olmalı. İlk fırsatta soracağım.
Herkese selamlar, sevgiler,
Özden
[Edited at 2004-10-31 04:39]
[Edited at 2004-10-31 04:42] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Müslüman =Turk | Mar 23, 2007 |
Bu eski başlıkta bir ekleme yapayım istedim. Turk kelimesinin farklı anlamlarda kullanıldığı da malum. Protestanlığın kurucusu Luther'e ve zamandaşlarına göre Turk=Müslüman.
Kur'an'dan bahsederken Türklerin kitabı, İslam Peygamberinden bahsederken Turklerin Peygamberi diyor.
Hatta o dönemde yapılan Batı dillerinde Kur'an meallerinde Turklerin kitabı diye başlık kullanılmış.
Kısa da olsa paylaşayım istedim.
Kolay gelsin
Nizam
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